Pakistan's New Fighter Jets Can Change the Balance: The Impact of Pakistan's First...

[FireFighter]

If one sees the F-22 project from an economic point of view it was indeed a failure with original program costs starting at 10 billion and have gone over 50-60 billio, thats a five fold increase.

The project was initiated during the cold war period to give American AF a technological edge against threat emerging from Soviet AF. Cold war ended with the collapse of Soviet Union, and USA emerged as a victor, the very purpose of the F-22 program ended in the late 90s along with those events.

I don't know how anyone can justify nearly $100 billion towards a single fighter jet program whose purpose died 20 years ago and more importantly, i doubt it's ever going to be seen in action against any other airforce, maybe minor radar evading bombing missions but no major air superiority roles which it was designed.

None other than the military industrial complex could justify these economically draining programs with vested interests sitting in the White House stamping these projects at whim.

Obama administration is right to temporarily stop this program.

USAF doesn't need F-22 for any purpose in the current geo-political-military environment, EA-18G Growler, F18F-15SE Silent Eagles and F16 bk60 can take on any adversaries even Russia and China but i really doubt US would ever do that due to Economic stakes being paramount for all parties involved, and I hope and pray that day never comes


Having said this, the author did not word his statement right probably due to poor writing skills, but he is right in saying that F-22 is a failure because he's seeing it from economic and project development point of views, and comparing the best F-22 with the worst being Tejas which took some 30 odd years in development but still not on the menu for IAF, JF17 project has exceeded expectation and has come to fruition within shortest time span for its class of fighters in the avaition history

 

[Chanakyaa]

IAF has atleast double the no. Of Top fighters than pakistan and this trend will continue atleast till 2030, prodied a miracle doesnt occour and PAF buys 500 fighters.

The 100+ sukhois are more than anough for countering pAF, But not agaist PLAAF, which is why MRCA is being opted.

MRCA is not being delayed everything is going as per schedule and trials are on, its a $35 billion project , 7 times the annual pakistani defence budget !

LCA has already being ordered and Defence minister has declared it a total success.
I can show u the maths if u want.

 

[Dazzler]

Optimism is good but not in all cases. Just look how many MKIs are in service toady? The plan was to induct atleast hundred till 2011 and how many are inducted? Your statement is vague where you say that 100 MKIs are enough for PAF. Do you really think this will be the case.

Think again

 

[asq]

I dont think the LCA is a bridge too far, but to say that they have a more mature weapons industry is false.. The limitations on our indrsutry are way more than anyone could imagine. for eg.. ROTAX international is a major supplier of UAV engines. Now if we build a certain UAV and order one engine. The next week it is on the banned list of weapons supplies to us. India however is able to order anything off the shelf and otherwise. and use it, does it make it more mature..certainly, Its using the latest tech which is easily available to it. So the maturity is based on availability. Our Industry thrives on getting the best out of what is available and not embargoed. So keeping that in mind and considering that we still managed to develop a cruise missile out of crashed parts is testament to our engineers. whether is implies that the Indians cant make anything or aren't mature is also a false supposition. And more importantly as I used to assert on many teenage fanboys who are eager to jump in a boast about Pakistan vs India. India is 5 times our size and manpower. They aren't embargoed usually like we are. They have a technologically mature supplier in Russia and now the United states. We are denied most tech, our supplier is one who has just started embracing Quality over quantity. So if there are areas where India develops faster than us then so be it. Its logical and not based on their engineers or scientists being superior. Just having more access and more amicable working environments.
If the MKI is a superior plane then IT IS.. simple. Because they had the access to the tech, they used their vast pool of programmers to integrate the equipment. and so they made it.
Our approach is different, we try to make the best out of what we have, whether that is better than the Indians or not is irrelevant to the fact that it comes close to our requirements. The JF-17 was designed to counter India's all BVR force, Which it will, It is designed to hold its own in WVR, which it does. We aren't looking to patrol the skies of Delhi with impunity. The goal is to contest air superiority over our own skies, disrupt enemy offensive operations. And provide air support to our army. If our new aircraft can achieve this with a marginal degree of success then we should be satisfied.

And as to the JF-17's current status, it has no proper radar as of yet. Weapons have been fired.. but we don't document a lot of things in this country. we'd rather keep quiet about testing something and announce it a year later after we are sure it works fine. Consider that we had a mirage coated with RAM infiltrate Indian airspace way back in 98(heard it from the mouth of the head of AWC)..Nobody got told about it.. because it was just a test, and there was no reason to tell anybody that we violated a country's airspace.

Coming to the usual JF-17 vs LCA discussion. Whether the indians failed 1001 times or were unsuccessful is also said that they learnt a 1001 ways of not doing something that way. So while the LCA may be plagued with teething problems. The next jet the Indians decide to make..wont. They'll remember their mistakes (hopefully.. as both our countrymen have extremely short memories) and wont make them in their next platform.
Also, considering that the LCA is solely designed by the Indians and by its Wikipedia description they tried pushing the envelope too far. This was inevitable that they would stumble. So them seeking help from those who have committed SIMILAR mistakes in the past is no demeaning factor. However.. I do criticise the Indians for doing precisely this, Pushing the technology and envelope too far in their first true home designed front line fighter(the Marut has Kurt Tank's hand in it,the man behind the brilliant Fw-190.So he probably introduced the techniques for flight testing.. etc), they instead should have followed the approach used on the F-16.. start light and basic. then keep adding on as you get more mature on the platforms capabilities and envelope.
The JF-17 was designed by the Chinese, built by the Chinese and just like before.. handed over to us for co manufacture. They only input we gave was in the cockpit ergonomics and interface. This doesn't mean we aren't good enough to make a plane.. It just requires a lot of investment-> CASH$$$ which unlike India we are deficient in. So we just asked for a made to order jet, and got one.

My take on their matches:
BVR-1vs1.. too close to tell- the one with better ECM and luck wins
WVR 1vs1 (full missle load)
First shot goes to the LCA as its delta allows for a higher instantaneous rate. comes down to angle and altitude.
WVR 1vs1(guns only) The LCA can manage a good snapshot, but in case he misses.. then the thunder has its ***. because the delta will then bleed energy like anything and the Thunder's conventional wing design offers a good sustained turn rate.

So as far as these aircraft are concerned, its down to the pilots skill.
But seriously.. I hope no one assumes that its gonna be a boxing match. Chances are the first encounters for each side will involve completely unmatched aircraft.


And will someone please tell me where to find this guy of rupee news.. i want to throw a bucket of Ice water on him. The guy has just had too much Gutka

You are right, it will boil down to pilot abilities, and we know who's pilots are considered best in Asia.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Optimism is good but not in all cases. Just look how many MKIs are in service toady? The plan was to induct atleast hundred till 2011 and how many are inducted? Your statement is vague where you say that 100 MKIs are enough for PAF. Do you really think this will be the case.

Think again

I wish to correct you here. India already has over 120 active MKIs in the service.
I see them everyday in Adampur airforce station. Infact there are more MKIs than Bisons in Adampur.

 

[asq]

jets are jets, they will face ground missiles which can wreak hovac on those incomming jets, i f our Forces think that those ground misisles will do the job.

examples are already there, that of kargil war.

so Indian superiority is questionable if they face good pilots, and Paistanis are very good pilots.

And size only matter if it is overwhelming, between India and Pakistan, there is not and there will never be such vast differance.


Pakistan has always fought with lesssor equpt and have been successfull and will be in future.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Mate how many f16s do u have? Just 18 in good condition, PAFace clearly mentioned that PAF is defensive and noway u can match the numbers.

By the time u have say 60 f16+60 j10 in 2015, india would have 230 mki alone not counting upgraded mirages and mig29smt.

U cant match $30 billion budget with $5 billion, though i PAF has every infra to make up for the role its intended to.

 

[FireFighter]

Mate how many f16s do u have? Just 18 in good condition, PAFace clearly mentioned that PAF is defensive and noway u can match the numbers.

By the time u have say 60 f16+60 j10 in 2015, india would have 230 mki alone not counting upgraded mirages and mig29smt.

U cant match $30 billion budget with $5 billion, though i PAF has every infra to make up for the role its intended to.

No one is denying that PAF is much smaller in size and will be in the future but considering the circumstances and other important strategic assets like missiles, we're not so far behind.

Lets suppose if India gets 240 MKI's, do you think IAF would utilize all of her assets across the border against Pak? All 240 flying sorties?

I don't that has ever happened in aviation history nor it is likely ...a rather laughable suggestion


Also, as the saying goes , the bigger you're the more vulnerable you become; giving more targets of opportunity for PAF to hit across border. JF17 is designed for a sneaky low altitude deep penetration into india to hit targets and make a swift comeback whilst F-16s are to defend the sky's.

Also if we're to lose $5 billion worth of stuff in case of war, stakes are much higher for India, i'd say at least 3 times higher and upto 5...so thats about 15-30 billion dollars worth of loss.

So yes war is a lose-lose situation for India more than it is for Pakistan.

 

[ROSH]

You are right, it will boil down to pilot abilities, and we know who's pilots are considered best in Asia.

" Best in Asia " ......hope you are not thinking that its the pakistani pilots......

You guys thought your Army Generals are the best in the past.....after three wars, I have not seen any Pakistani claiming this...

Trust me ..there will not be any war between India and Pakiatan. Give us just 5-7 more years ...that's it.
Post this..you will just shudder at the thought.

 

[Skywalker]

" Best in Asia " ......hope you are not thinking that its the pakistani pilots......

You guys thought your Army Generals are the best in the past.....after three wars, I have not seen any Pakistani claiming this...

Trust me ..there will not be any war between India and Pakiatan. Give us just 5-7 more years ...that's it.
Post this..you will just shudder at the thought.

Fan boy's dream.

 

[mrwarrior006]

No one is denying that PAF is much smaller in size and will be in the future but considering the circumstances and other important strategic assets like missiles, we're not so far behind.

Lets suppose if India gets 240 MKI's, do you think IAF would utilize all of her assets across the border against Pak? All 240 flying sorties?

I don't that has ever happened in aviation history nor it is likely ...a rather laughable suggestion


Also, as the saying goes , the bigger you're the more vulnerable you become; giving more targets of opportunity for PAF to hit across border. JF17 is designed for a sneaky low altitude deep penetration into india to hit targets and make a swift comeback whilst F-16s are to defend the sky's.

Also if we're to lose $5 billion worth of stuff in case of war, stakes are much higher for India, i'd say at least 3 times higher and upto 5...so thats about 15-30 billion dollars worth of loss.

So yes war is a lose-lose situation for India more than it is for Pakistan

1.if IAF is ordered to go full offensive then it will no doubt about tat ,coz its heavy fighter aircraft and haevy in all terms

2.more vulnerable accepted but u should have tat much of plane to make it possible
let say india has 60 bases and u have 60 plane will u send them in splits to attack not good idea
and if u send them at once ,u might get success but cannot hold it for long enough, coz in each sorty casaulties will increase

 

[S.U.R.B.]

" Best in Asia " ......hope you are not thinking that its the pakistani pilots......

You guys thought your Army Generals are the best in the past.....after three wars, I have not seen any Pakistani claiming this...

Trust me ..there will not be any war between India and Pakiatan. Give us just 5-7 more years ...that's it.
Post this..you will just shudder at the thought.

Here we go with in 5-7 year is india becoming a superpower? Even the current superpower is asking Pakistan for help in Afghanistan affairs.Indians don't need to come in Afghanistan to get the beating of their life. All they need is to ask for it.

 

[Storm Force]

There are 6 sqds of operational SU30MKI with 120 planes.

By 2015 IAF will have 12 Sqds and 230 mki..

In 2018 pak fa will starT small scale induction. FGFA.

LCA is close to IOC and IAF will field 40 mk1 TEJAS by 2015 latest.

MK2 will enter service 20-15 with euro jet engine frm EADS and israeli IELTA AESA radar ..

MMRCA is complete overkill vis PAF but needed for china borders

 

[asq]

Numbers has alwasy been in the favour of India, but it has yet to achieve anything to talk about.

Yes it did manage to buy traiters in East pakistan, but in Kargil, it was a differant story, India begged West to help her and west did.

Had it been based on courage and standing tall, it would been a diferance story.
But running to the masters and keep doing so to please is the trend with Indian Leaders.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Numbers has alwasy been in the favour of India, but it has yet to achieve anything to talk about.

Yes it did manage to buy traiters in East pakistan, but in Kargil, it was a differant story, India begged West to help her and west did.

Had it been based on courage and standing tall, it would been a diferance story.
But running to the masters and keep doing so to please is the trend with Indian Leaders.

This is a flame bait and he needs to derail the thread....beware people...