Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[hj786]

Would you tell how you made JF into a MKI killer in next 3-5 years? do u think that MKI will be same spec. in 3-5 years and no fighters included into this time period(MMRCA)?
may be you still unable to understand the difference b/w
we can do this.......... and we will do this...........
by MastanKhan

Would you like to tell me why they can't make JF into an mki killer in 3-5 years from now, if they spend second-hand M2k money on JF upgrades such as European AESA radars and missiles tomorrow and put sufficient development efforts behind the upgrades?
Do you think JF will stay in the same spec in 3-5 years? You think PAF do not know mki might be upgraded with AESA in near future?

I never said what PAF "can do" and what they "will do" because I don't know, and neither do you.
Maybe you are still unable to understand the difference between how to make a good post and how to make a stupid, pointless one.

 

[pshamim]

2.. Though it is very good initiative but it has lot of technological challanges in integration, cost, time and subject to approval from France. Then another question why the hell PAF have to wait and toil for 5-10 years to integrate French technologies (mostly from Mirage or down graded version of it) in JF17s and FC20s, when they can readily got them by acquiring these second hand Mirages. It is better to give 5-10 years to Chinese companies so they can develop those components at par Mirage or better.

Food for thought-A great post. You make a lot of sense. Hope someone in PAF is reading this and other posts by you and Mastan Khan Saheb.

 

[MastanKhan]

Bogged Down,

God bless you my good man. What a great post---You discuss the technical part of the discussion with a great deal of conviction and truth.

I really get shocked when posters have no idea what m2k-5 and m2k-9 are and they are stating that they would not bring nothing new to paf---meaning otherwise---that the F7PG's---the mirage3/5's---the A 5's---F16 A/b---and soon to be integrated first batch of JF 17's are as capable birds or more so than the current pride of french aviation.

Your post was like another life line to me today---thankyou very much.

While on that topic---let me ask you something---people who think different---is it a precursor to impending lunacy or what

 

[MastanKhan]

Food for thought-A great post. You make a lot of sense. Hope someone in PAF is reading this and other posts by you and Mastan Khan Saheb.

Pshamim sir,

Am I reading it right---my position / stance is being vindicated. Thank you. MK

 

[Quwa]

BoggedDown and MastanKhan....

I find this highly unfair...no honourable mention of me even though I supported the Mirage 2000-5 issue along with you...

Honestly though, I do think there is a chance that PAF may acquire Mirage 2000-5/-9 from UAE and Qatar. Key points to remember is that the best systems available on today's market can easily bring the Mirage 2000-5/-9 to 4+ generation standards. For example you have SAGEM's Gerfaut HMD and MBDA's MICA-IR/RF...Thales' avionics, ECM/EW - incl. DRFM - and datalink technology, etc. Pakistan can also cooperate with MBDA to further improve the Ra'ad ALCM - perhaps to model its airframe to be as stealthy as the Storm Shadow/Black Shaheeen.

 

[pshamim]

BoggedDown and MastanKhan....

I find this highly unfair...no honourable mention of me even though I supported the Mirage 2000-5 issue along with you...

Honestly though, I do think there is a chance that PAF may acquire Mirage 2000-5/-9 from UAE and Qatar. Key points to remember is that the best systems available on today's market can easily bring the Mirage 2000-5/-9 to 4+ generation standards. For example you have SAGEM's Gerfaut HMD and MBDA's MICA-IR/RF...Thales' avionics, ECM/EW - incl. DRFM - and datalink technology, etc. Pakistan can also cooperate with MBDA to further improve the Ra'ad ALCM - perhaps to model its airframe to be as stealthy as the Storm Shadow/Black Shaheeen.

Oh Shucks! I am sorry Faisal for not mentioning you. Your inquisitive mind and knowledgeable posts always give me a pause to rethink. Keep it up.

And Mastan Saheb, You are reading it right. I did try to paly the Devil's advocate but if you visit Pakdef, which I am sure you do, you will find my enthusiam for UAE and Qatar's Mirages in my recent posts.

I have always felt that introduction of these Mirages if Pakistan is successful, will add tremendous infusion of technology and capabilities to PAF and bridge the gap. JF-17 will turn out to be a great weapon but needs some maturing over time that Mirages induction will provide. Mirages will take quite a bit of Indian's advantage off.

 

[HAIDER]

Well Hellenic AF is slowly switching to Russians planes. Already switch to Russian air defence (S300).

 

[araz]

Hi Araz,

My friend--I do have a thick skin. But I do appreciate the kind words. I tahnk you very much for responding.

Seems tome like this has become a tennis match with a long rally. The posters are just saying the same things and nobody wants to move from their fixed positions---.

From your last post---seemingly---you have changed your position somewhat!!!

Mastan Khan,
My friend I have switched over from the back hand to a fore handed shot. Being a left hander , my angles are often difficult to read.
Many thanks for your post . This forum is a constant learning opportunity for me.
However one of the points that no one has answered is, whether the infrastructure for M2K5/9 would have to be re errected or would be similar to M3/5. if it is different then where do we get it from.
Secondly even though we get the money on soft loans basis, we still have to pay them back. The state of our finances being what it is, how are we going to manage to do that.
I would like to have memeebrs thoughts on it as well.
I think personally that We have meagre resources and should spend it on projects with development potential in them. Mirage M2K5/9 are good but the price needs to be reallty attractive for PAF to consider it.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[mhussain]

Who knows? maybe PAF can get them for free or at bare minimum costs? I say anything around $10 million would make it worthwhile. Recall that Indonesia was offered 10 of these birds for free.

Araz, new infrastructure would be needed. However, the country PAF would get the M2Ks from (Qatar or UAE) would also have this infrastructure (?) for sale / gift (?)

 

[MaXimMaRz]

I dont know how the impression of buying Mirage-2000 came up, i read the opening few lines , some one wrote GEO report. As far as i know we were interested in buying grippen only. at that time we had the money but no one was ready to sell new stuff (Big player's agenda). M-2000 was not , and is not even in the options. As some of the writers have rightly pointed out, You dont take the same breed of horse to war on which your enemy is already riding. apart form that the french tech limits you in terms of weapons, you need to go through alot of major modifications to get another weapon onboard.

Mirage-2000 is near to be a failure interms of cost effectiveness and needs a lot of maintenance. There are much cheaper and highly effective systems available these days, but this time we dont got the funds.

As far as operational aspect of Mirage-2000 is concerned, well still today, IAF is using them to carry out zoom up attacks in air superiority role. The bottom line, if you have mirage-2000 you need them in bulk a big bulk , cuz contrary to Wat they say, It doesn't qualify as a role specialist Aircraft.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I believe our F16 Block 52 armed with sniper targetting pods will be able to deliver laser guided munitions with pinpoint accuracy. It would be quite foolish on part of PAF if they opt for M2K, because simply we dont have the funds to buy this airplane.

 

[maverick2009]

USA has offered 36 F16/52 yet PAF has only ordered 18 WHY...???

F16 has all the infrastructure and know how in place why buy Mirage2000-9

36 block52 + 44 MLU F16 = 78 f16 IN TOTAL WITH 500 AMRAAMS C5 BVR missles.

that arsenal is a huge challenge to IAF.

Concentrate on improving JF17 and buy far more J10 APPROX 100 OF each.

 

[IceCold]

USA has offered 36 F16/52 yet PAF has only ordered 18 WHY...???

I think a more notably reason behind it was that we want to focus on the FC-20 which is going to become the back bone of the PAF. i too for one of this opinion that we need to exercise the option of 18 more Block-52 F-16s. However with that said it is good to wait and see if the order for initial 18 gets delivered without any delays or hurdles by the Americans.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

I think a more notably reason behind it was that we want to focus on the FC-20 which is going to become the back bone of the PAF. i too for one of this opinion that we need to exercise the option of 18 more Block-52 F-16s. However with that said it is good to wait and see if the order for initial 18 gets delivered without any delays or hurdles by the Americans.

Isnt the JF 17 going to be the backbone of PAF?..The maximum number of the FC 20 is not going to cross 50 I suppose, but the number of JF 17 stands at 150 to 250. So I think JF will be the back bone and FC 20 will be the High end fighter of PAF in the future.

I think the Mirage 2000-5/9 would have made a great addition to PAF during the late 90s. It would have turned out to be a very potent fighter by now. But going for it right now is not a wise Idea. It can be used to replace the older Mirages but no real great advantage.

 

[MastanKhan]

USA has offered 36 F16/52 yet PAF has only ordered 18 WHY...???

F16 has all the infrastructure and know how in place why buy Mirage2000-9

36 block52 + 44 MLU F16 = 78 f16 IN TOTAL WITH 500 AMRAAMS C5 BVR missles.

that arsenal is a huge challenge to IAF.

Concentrate on improving JF17 and buy far more J10 APPROX 100 OF each.

Hi,

My understanding is that u s had no limit ( maybe 76 ) on the sale of the F 16's when the sale was approved by congress. But the relationship between pak and u s of a has detriorated since then---there has been talk of sanction one more time by the u s senators and congressmen.

I believe the original order was for 70 plus ( correct me plz ) but then after th earth quake it came down to 36 and after the talk of sanctions---18.

Infrastructure doesnot do any good when there are sanctions looming up ahead---it does make things easy during hard times when you know how to fix them---but then for an air force live like that for ever---to have its prime strike fighter aircraft under the shadow of impending sanctions---that is not a good strategy---that is not a good game plan---it shows a lack of maturity on the part of planners---this marriage maybe up for another divorce.