Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[mhussain]

Lets not forget Brazil, Greece, Egypt and Peru. taiwan may be politically not possible. All would potentially want these Mirages.

 

[pakpower]

Why all you guys think here that Pakistan must get these Mirage 2000 Birds ?

I think Pakistan must push France for Rafale if they can replace with our Mirages 3s and 5s it's my imagination.

Well in reality is it possible with France to talk out this problem of having great new jet in the shape of Rafalle by replacing with all of our Mirage 3s and 5s ?

Or this is only in my dreams possible.?

 

[Manticore]

hi!
many are saying that
option1
we should go ahead with qatari/uae mirages more forcfully...

option2
but on the other hand also saying that dassault are not getting that much market and french are keen to sell their avionics... and paf should coin this oppurtunity to get avionics aswell as some tot.

1]
i think if the avionics that are used in leading french jets is obtainable then we should use it to mature our own platforms as we dont have many recources to go for many platforms that would have almost same quality...
hate to say it but j10a/f16a/jf17/mirage2000 are somewhat in the same league..

so whynot upgrade the jf17 with the hiteck avionics the french are offering?

2]
[it would be cheaper if we buy only the avionics and fit it into our jf17]


3]
We should not think 10 years back but 10 years ahead of us.mirages were the best option in the 90s when jf17 was only on papers..but not now...the world is moving towards 4.5-5th gen.... we should upgrade our indeginous jf17s to 4.5 gen capabilities..

4]
if we have so much money then then invest in the new rafale rather than old mirage2000 .
[2 squadrons of rafale plus j10 can handle su30/27/f18s]


5]
rather than stopgap measures we should also use foresight.... i know that most of our foresight nowadays is governed and crippled by our economy....

6]
in the coming years 4.5 gen would be jets that should be in most quantity in any decent airforce.
==========================================================
60% 4.5 gen...... f16c/d.[mlu]..rafale.. fc20
25% 4th gen...... mirages.. jf17[block1]..
15% 5th gen.......f35.. jxx

[the % can somewhat be debatable.. this is a rough estimate]

==========================================================
light-medium-heavy-5thgen
IAF
lca/jaguar/mig29---f18/su27-- su30---pakfa

PAF
jf17[block1]+f7pg-- jf17+f16+fc20-- rafale/f35--jxx


==========================================================
On a more sentimental note....
our new generation will curse us if we waste our money in an old aircraft which kind we can build ourselves now.just the way we curse the time when we didnt get the mirages in the 90s

a man always aspires for what he couldnt get... i thinks along with f16s now we are idolizing mirages aswell

regards

 

[pakpower]

hi!
many are saying that
option1
we should go ahead with qatari/uae mirages more forcfully...

option2
but on the other hand also saying that dassault are not getting that much market and french are keen to sell their avionics... and paf should coin this oppurtunity to get avionics aswell as some tot.

1]
i think if the avionics that are used in leading french jets is obtainable then we should use it to mature our own platforms as we dont have many recources to go for many platforms that would have almost same quality...
hate to say it but j10a/f16a/jf17/mirage2000 are somewhat in the same league..

so whynot upgrade the jf17 with the hiteck avionics the french are offering?

2]
[it would be cheaper if we buy only the avionics and fit it into our jf17]


3]
We should not think 10 years back but 10 years ahead of us.mirages were the best option in the 90s when jf17 was only on papers..but not now...the world is moving towards 4.5-5th gen.... we should upgrade our indeginous jf17s to 4.5 gen capabilities..

4]
if we have so much money then then invest in the new rafale rather than old mirage2000 .
[2 squadrons of rafale plus j10 can handle su30/27/f18s]


5]
rather than stopgap measures we should also use foresight.... i know that most of our foresight nowadays is governed and crippled by our economy....

6]
in the coming years 4.5 gen would be jets that should be in most quantity in any decent airforce.
================================================== ========
60% 4.5 gen...... f16c/d.[mlu]..rafale.. fc20
25% 4th gen...... mirages.. jf17[block1]..
15% 5th gen.......f35.. jxx

[the % can somewhat be debatable.. this is a rough estimate]

================================================== ========
light-medium-heavy-5thgen
IAF
lca/jaguar/mig29---f18/su27-- su30---pakfa

PAF
jf17[block1]+f7pg-- jf17+f16+fc20-- rafale/f35--jxx


================================================== ========
On a more sentimental note....
our new generation will curse us if we waste our money in an old aircraft which kind we can build ourselves now.just the way we curse the time when we didnt get the mirages in the 90s

a man always aspires for what he couldnt get... i thinks along with f16s now we are idolizing mirages aswell

regards

Well said that's the attitude we need in the future to develop our Air Aersnal etc......................

 

[pakpower]

YOYO DAWGS

i found a US report that talks about air dominance capabilities of various contries. They talk a lot about china russ and india. Pak is also mentioned somewhere.

Pretty AWESOME


by the way it also says: "IAF in the past decade has established an admirable record of professionalism and capability."

india is the only AF that got this praise. nice job IAF

I'll give u the link when my 15 posts are over

Your Message is totally out of the Topic firstly read the topic then try to post your Message.

 

[M_Saint]

hi!
many are saying that
option1
we should go ahead with qatari/uae mirages more forcfully...

option2
but on the other hand also saying that dassault are not getting that much market and french are keen to sell their avionics... and paf should coin this oppurtunity to get avionics aswell as some tot.

1]
i think if the avionics that are used in leading french jets is obtainable then we should use it to mature our own platforms as we dont have many recources to go for many platforms that would have almost same quality...
hate to say it but j10a/f16a/jf17/mirage2000 are somewhat in the same league..

so whynot upgrade the jf17 with the hiteck avionics the french are offering?

2]
[it would be cheaper if we buy only the avionics and fit it into our jf17]


3]
We should not think 10 years back but 10 years ahead of us.mirages were the best option in the 90s when jf17 was only on papers..but not now...the world is moving towards 4.5-5th gen.... we should upgrade our indeginous jf17s to 4.5 gen capabilities..

4]
if we have so much money then then invest in the new rafale rather than old mirage2000 .
[2 squadrons of rafale plus j10 can handle su30/27/f18s]


5]
rather than stopgap measures we should also use foresight.... i know that most of our foresight nowadays is governed and crippled by our economy....

6]
in the coming years 4.5 gen would be jets that should be in most quantity in any decent airforce.
==========================================================
60% 4.5 gen...... f16c/d.[mlu]..rafale.. fc20
25% 4th gen...... mirages.. jf17[block1]..
15% 5th gen.......f35.. jxx

[the % can somewhat be debatable.. this is a rough estimate]

==========================================================
light-medium-heavy-5thgen
IAF
lca/jaguar/mig29---f18/su27-- su30---pakfa

PAF
jf17[block1]+f7pg-- jf17+f16+fc20-- rafale/f35--jxx


==========================================================
On a more sentimental note....
our new generation will curse us if we waste our money in an old aircraft which kind we can build ourselves now.just the way we curse the time when we didnt get the mirages in the 90s

a man always aspires for what he couldnt get... i thinks along with f16s now we are idolizing mirages aswell

regards

Hi

Thanks for intelligibly explaining PAF's needs, its 'To do' lists and demonstrating foresight fullness. I whole-heartedly agree with your analysis and want to explain the reason for brokering Mirages for PAF what I have wanted to say to brother mhussein too. Please note that the prevailing WAR like scenario against much stronger foes throws PAF to adjust with the 'Doctrine of necessity' stance and since it doesn't have anything equal to MKI or SMT or F-18s; UAE's 63 Mirages would fill that vacuum partially. I understand that PAF doesn't have fund and that's why propose to create a term of 'Joint Partnership' and making it 'Readily available' during war time. Trust me, holding 'a Joint partnership' tag until JF-17, FC-20 arrive would make aggressors think twice.

And iF PAF can sell the potential of the combination of Qatari Mirage's upgrade to latest Rafale's one along with JF-17’s one and acquires 2 squadrons of the latest Rafale with maximuml TOT(Off course depending on J-XX's unavailability for long) to Franch GOVT then it would be a heck of a deal IMO.

 

[maverick2009]

in 1980/90s The Mirage 2000 was a Great Warplane. On a par to F16 & better then russian MIG29.. esp the block 2000-5.

Way better then the Tornado which entered service about the same period.

My question in the future say 2012-2015 WUD PAF gain a lot by acquiring second hand fighters deemed not sufficient for UAE air force.

ie PAF wud be better going for Typhoon or Rafael surely ????

 

[Patriot]

in 1980/90s The Mirage 2000 was a Great Warplane. On a par to F16 & better then russian MIG29.. esp the block 2000-5.

Way better then the Tornado which entered service about the same period.

My question in the future say 2012-2015 WUD PAF gain a lot by acquiring second hand fighters deemed not sufficient for UAE air force.

ie PAF wud be better going for Typhoon or Rafael surely ????

Rafale or Eurofighter is not possible unless economy recovers.

 

[IceCold]

Mirage 2000 is history now, there is no need to hang with the past, it surely is a g8 plane and imo would have been a great contribution to the PAF fleet had we acquire them, however for whatever reason may it be, time is gone and this has become history, we need to look towards the future which surely lies in the JF-17 and the FC-20. PAF cannot induct another platform because of the budget restraints. Moreover once we finish acquiring both these platforms replacing our old mirage and F-7 fleet, we should concentrate on a 5th generation fighter jet. India has already begun, we cannot afford to be left behind.

 

[batmannow]

is history now, there is no need to hang with the past, it surely is a g8 plane and imo would have been a great contribution to the PAF fleet had we acquire them, however for whatever reason may it be, time is gone and this has become history, we need to look towards the future which surely lies in the JF-17 and the FC-20. PAF cannot induct another platform because of the budget restraints. Moreover once we finish acquiring both these platforms replacing our old mirage and F-7 fleet, we should concentrate on a 5th generation fighter jet. India has already begun, we cannot afford to be left behind.

thanks ice cold, sir
i cant understand why this thread has been , kept running so long, there is no way PAF is or will be thinking of Mirage 2000s, its dam clear!
isnt it?

 

[IceCold]

thanks ice cold, sir
i cant understand why this thread has been , kept running so long, there is no way PAF is or will be thinking of Mirage 2000s, it dam clear!
isnt it?

Most senior members have stated the same, people like sir Pshamim or MuradK sir who have the first hand knowledge and information about what may happen in the PAF.
Mirage2000 is history now and besides alongside with the induction of JF-17,FC-20 and the block-52, we can't really afford to induct another platform and something that doesn't provide us with anything beyond of what we will have pretty soon inshallah.

 

[maverick2009]

The best air forces have no more than 3 Combat Types.

In fact i will start a Thread on This to Discuss . !!!!

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

This thread is open to read and learn and understand about the screw ups of the past. The reason for the open thread is to find out and understand the wayward attitude of the paf in the 90's. The m2k and the f16 purchase fiasco are some of the ugliest part of our defence procurement history---regardless of who is at fault or who is not. Our nations strike capabilites had been severy limited.

Now if we are still getting ready our mirage 3/5 and installing air to air refuelling probes on them, which then becomes something contradictory in itself. So---if mirage 3/5 can still be flying for the next 10--15 years---then the m2k's should be good for at least another quarter of a century---now shouldn't they be!!!

 

[IceCold]

Now if we are still getting ready our mirage 3/5 and installing air to air refuelling probes on them, which then becomes something contradictory in itself. So---if mirage 3/5 can still be flying for the next 10--15 years---then the m2k's should be good for at least another quarter of a century---now shouldn't they be!!!

Depends upon how you take it. Mirages 3/5 are already with the airforce and we can test different things with it, more like a test bed for us, however installing fueling probes does not mean that we plan to continue with the mirages. Sooner or latter JF-17 will replace them.
As for mirage 2000 well that would be like inducting an entirely new platform, as far as the platform itself is concerned there is no doubt it is a capable jet, however question is at what cost? Moreover the capability that we will achieve, will there be any significant leap over what we already have or going to have in few years time, answer is no. Mirage-2000 will not give us any edge over the IAF, it will be just like any another plane in our inventory something that the IAF already has and fully aware of how to use it to its full potential.
I agree with the fact that we made a bad decision in the past by not acquiring this jet when it made the logical sense in replacing our existing fleet of mirages and mirages have served us well, however my point is we cannot hang on to what is gone, its past now. There is no point in acquiring them now, reasons i tried to explain above. We need to look towards the future which surely lies in the JF-17, FC-20 and F-16 mlus. Block 52 maybe i am not too optimist about it however if we get them then that along with FC-20 would bring PAF to an entirely new level. With that i might add we need to concentrate on a 5th generation fighter jet. As i have stated before India has already begun, we cannot afford to stay much behind.

 

[Munir]

Now if we are still getting ready our mirage 3/5 and installing air to air refuelling probes on them, which then becomes something contradictory in itself. So---if mirage 3/5 can still be flying for the next 10--15 years---then the m2k's should be good for at least another quarter of a century---now shouldn't they be!!!

The reason that Mirage 3/5 fly is because you have nothing else... Not because they are good... If they can replace them yesterday they would have done it. If France stopped producing them and there is no way it can compete with something the Indians have for the next few years then would you still go for them? Mirage 2k would be nice 10 years ago. If you are so full of a plane which is one generation behind then I would be intrested on facts.