Pakistan's Mirage 2000 Saga

[mean_bird]

We have been having some discussion about how and why PAF had gone back to US for the F-16 and that the French or europeans in general would have been much more reliable.

Some interesting (rather disturbing) development.

Arms exports for Pakistan rejected.

The cabinet has rejected a request for the export of replacement parts for anti-aircraft systems to Pakistan due to the instable political situation in the country.

The Asian nation was the largest buyer of Swiss arms last year.

A spokeswoman for the economics ministry said on Wednesday that Switzerland would reconsider its policy if and when other European countries restarted exporting arms to Pakistan.

The cabinet also rejected a request for the export of weapons to Egypt and Saudi Arabia because of the unsatisfactory human rights situation in those countries.

However, it approved the sale of hundreds of rifles and machine guns to India to equip the police in various parts of the country, and the delivery of parts for air-to-air guided missiles and anti-aircraft guns to South Korea.

The pacificist group, Switzerland without an army, wants to ban the export of arms, and has collected enough signatures to bring the issue to a nationwide vote. A date still has to be set for the vote.


Source

Reaffirms my thinking that going the China way and finally self-sufficiency way is the best decision.

 

[pshamim]

We have been having some discussion about how and why PAF had gone back to US for the F-16 and that the French or europeans in general would have been much more reliable.

Some interesting (rather disturbing) development.

Arms exports for Pakistan rejected.

The cabinet has rejected a request for the export of replacement parts for anti-aircraft systems to Pakistan due to the instable political situation in the country.

The Asian nation was the largest buyer of Swiss arms last year.

A spokeswoman for the economics ministry said on Wednesday that Switzerland would reconsider its policy if and when other European countries restarted exporting arms to Pakistan.

The cabinet also rejected a request for the export of weapons to Egypt and Saudi Arabia because of the unsatisfactory human rights situation in those countries.

However, it approved the sale of hundreds of rifles and machine guns to India to equip the police in various parts of the country, and the delivery of parts for air-to-air guided missiles and anti-aircraft guns to South Korea.

The pacificist group, Switzerland without an army, wants to ban the export of arms, and has collected enough signatures to bring the issue to a nationwide vote. A date still has to be set for the vote.


Source

Reaffirms my thinking that going the China way and finally self-sufficiency way is the best decision.

Pardon my language. Swiss are bloody idiots. They have refused to provide parts for a defensive systems for POLITICAL REASONS. They were supplying all during the military rule. Wonder what they mean. Kneejerk reactionary they are.

Reminds me of an incident in mid 70s while I worked for Lonrho Corporation in U.K. We had a division in Switzerland producing Mine Detectors. After British Petroleum was nationalized by Libyans, British had an embargo on Libya. Swiss rejected an order for 5000 Mine Detectors which were needed for clearing out left over mines from the 2nd world war and which had caused many deaths in Libyan desert.

Totally unbelievable.

 

[BaburCM]

This news should serve as a reminder that Pakistan needs to work more closely with the likes of China. It also means to put more emphasis on becoming more and more self-sufficient in areas which we can. Pakistan has taken the necessary steps in the past decade to become more self-reliant. The JVs with China are a good example. Also, where possible Pakistan has acquired the best tech (U-214s, ERIEYE system etc.) with some level of ToT.

 

[mean_bird]

Pardon my language. Swiss are bloody idiots. They have refused to provide parts for a defensive systems for POLITICAL REASONS. They were supplying all during the military rule. Wonder what they mean. Kneejerk reactionary they are.

Reminds me of an incident in mid 70s while I worked for Lonrho Corporation in U.K. We had a division in Switzerland producing Mine Detectors. After British Petroleum was nationalized by Libyans, British had an embargo on Libya. Swiss rejected an order for 5000 Mine Detectors which were needed for clearing out left over mines from the 2nd world war and which had caused many deaths in Libyan desert.

Totally unbelievable.

I concur

In fact, my point of posting this news here is that even the Europeans aren't that reliable. Today it is the swiss, tomorrow it could be the french or swedes.

It is so unfortunate that we are currently short in cash. Developing our own industry and going for ToT should be the way forward for Pakistan. We would be living in a fool's paradise if we think that the french or swedes would never sanction us. A lot of these nations would just go where the wind is blowing.

I hope any avionics package or engine that we may be negotiating with the french comes with ToT, atleast partial ToT and repair/overhauling facilities that would allow us to not be sleeping every night thinking of sanctions.

 

[qsaark]

I concur..........night thinking of sanctions.

Too bad there is no option for putting more than one 'Thanks'. So I have to 'reply' to you to say 'Thanks'. Yes you are absolutely right.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Swiss are known for that---when Zia asked us of a to get him Oerlikon guns from the swiss---they asked what for---he said for the afghans mujahideen---they replied---scr-ew you---it is for the army against india---but the u s convinced them for the sale---but then they are the swiss---on the other hand they do sell us equipment time and again.

As far as french are concerned----it was a different ball game---they may put sanctions on one hand but they will give from the other hand.

 

[All-Green]

While i share the faith of my brothers in JF-17 and FC-20; i really think procurement of Mirage2k cannot be rated as a retarded step as said by one of the members here.
Mirage2k is a very potent aircraft and is fully operational and successful fighter.
Maybe 10-20 years down the line our upgraded JF-17 are more venomous but this teething of aircraft takes an unbelievable amount of time, something we should not take lightly.

Let us not delude ourselves that we have a top notch aircraft inventory in PAF currently. We have had a crippled PAF since the 90s.
Our pilots are brave skillful warriors but we have had following things going against us and many of them are still not addressed!

1) Much less strategic depth
2) Extremely less number of top notch air superiority and multi role fighters
3) No (now limited) BVR
4) No long range modern SAMs
5) No long range modern attack aircraft
6) extremely limited electronic warfare capability
7) Much Less number of operation airfields
8) A proven track record of lack of coordination between different branches of military in conducting Joint operations. (evident recently from Kargil operation).
This cannot be taken lightly.

We have been lucky a few times that we did not go to war, whereas i know our armed forces would have given India a lot of hell, we would have lost out to IAF and once they would have had attained air supremacy the Navy and Army would have been sitting ducks and unbelievable damage would have been done to our entire infrastructure for decades to come.

On top of this when our Army heads (knowing fully well the situation of PAF) launch an adventure in Kargil; it totally uncovers a total lack of threat perception on part of our previous high command which is the gravest error that can be attributed to a force commander who is launching an offensive!!!

Our high command needs to change its attitude since we have been caught with the pants down on a number of occasions.
Mirage2k saga is painful one but i hope that after Kargil our High command has had a wake up call!
Air force is the most fundamental part of any military nowadays.

Regarding Grippen, it boasts US engines and other parts as well and will have same sanctions as a US aircraft in case there are strained relations with US.
France has been much more independent in its arms sales and in Europe is the only country we can deal with in a less stressful environment.
As long as France is interested it will not be bullied by US.

By 2020 i am very hopeful that China will have much more mature avionics/engines package for the new fighters of its own but in this hope there is no absolute guarantee and we have lots of top notch fighters sitting across the border and our national defence in question!

if M2K is acquirable at a reasonable cost then doing so would be a very wise step and will give a very very significant boost to PAF, we should and can negotiate for TOT since the aircraft will not be manufactured by France in future. No body has stopped us from negotiating more aggressively/intelligently.
If PAF is seen as dangerous with 40 odd old F-16s then please do understand what the Mirage2k can do to bolster our defenses.

 

[Patriot]

While i share the faith of my brothers in JF-17 and FC-20; i really think procurement of Mirage2k cannot be rated as a retarded step as said by one of the members here.
Mirage2k is a very potent aircraft and is fully operational and successful fighter.
Maybe 10-20 years down the line our upgraded JF-17 are more venomous but this teething of aircraft takes an unbelievable amount of time, something we should not take lightly.

Let us not delude ourselves that we have a top notch aircraft inventory in PAF currently. We have had a crippled PAF since the 90s.
Our pilots are brave skillful warriors but we have had following things going against us and many of them are still not addressed!

1) Much less strategic depth
2) Extremely less number of top notch air superiority and multi role fighters
3) No (now limited) BVR
4) No long range modern SAMs
5) No long range modern attack aircraft
6) extremely limited electronic warfare capability
7) Much Less number of operation airfields
8) A proven track record of lack of coordination between different branches of military in conducting Joint operations. (evident recently from Kargil operation).
This cannot be taken lightly.

We have been lucky a few times that we did not go to war, whereas i know our armed forces would have given India a lot of hell, we would have lost out to IAF and once they would have had attained air supremacy the Navy and Army would have been sitting ducks and unbelievable damage would have been done to our entire infrastructure for decades to come.

On top of this when our Army heads (knowing fully well the situation of PAF) launch an adventure in Kargil; it totally uncovers a total lack of threat perception on part of our previous high command which is the gravest error that can be attributed to a force commander who is launching an offensive!!!

Our high command needs to change its attitude since we have been caught with the pants down on a number of occasions.
Mirage2k saga is painful one but i hope that after Kargil our High command has had a wake up call!
Air force is the most fundamental part of any military nowadays.

Regarding Grippen, it boasts US engines and other parts as well and will have same sanctions as a US aircraft in case there are strained relations with US.
France has been much more independent in its arms sales and in Europe is the only country we can deal with in a less stressful environment.
As long as France is interested it will not be bullied by US.

By 2020 i am very hopeful that China will have much more mature avionics/engines package for the new fighters of its own but in this hope there is no absolute guarantee and we have lots of top notch fighters sitting across the border and our national defence in question!

if M2K is acquirable at a reasonable cost then doing so would be a very wise step and will give a very very significant boost to PAF, we should and can negotiate for TOT since the aircraft will not be manufactured by France in future. No body has stopped us from negotiating more aggressively/intelligently.
If PAF is seen as dangerous with 40 odd old F-16s then please do understand what the Mirage2k can do to bolster our defenses.

Agreed.Air Warefare is important part of war.If you gain Air Superiority you can destroy the enemy.Look What happened in Gulf War.How US destroyed whole Army of Iraq with Air Planes.PAF budget should be increased.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Just because swiss are doing what they have been known to do for ages---doesnot mean that we curtail our relations with the french or even with the swiss. French have been one of our most reliable sources except for a small glich in the late 90's. Other than that they have supplied us with the equipment through thick and thin.


We can't keep fighting the world with our rhetoric all the time. We have to learn to develop friendships in a more meaningful manner.

Repair and overhauling is not transfer of technology----it is just a part of basic maintenance. French have always been very reasonable with pakistan---except for the early 90's---the M2K fiasco---taking advantage of us due to sanctions---by increasing price---but then we all learn sooner or later.

At this moment france is the most vulnerable countries in europe in regards to selling its millitary hardware---it is desperately trying to secure the order for the JF 17 radar systems---french aeronautical industry is at the verge of a collapse---though it maynot happen---the production line of rafael has come close to barely a crawl----there is no better time to start up new allegiances with france---unless they snag the order of 126 planes from india----but still then, they will supply pakistan with what we need.

Bottomline is that if we already know what the swiss are going to do---why travel that road---fool me once---shame on you---fool me twice---


All Green,

You are right about your assessment about the pak army---couldn't have put it better myself---the purpose of the post is not to bash the pak army---but make the reader understand the THICK HEADEDNESS of the powers to be. Between the army, navy and airforce---there are one too many bloated egos---some of these commanders act as if these forces are their personal fiefdoms---and the citizens of pakistan are their serfs.

 

[PAFAce]

Between the army, navy and airforce---there are one too many bloated egos---some of these commanders act as if these forces are their personal fiefdoms---and the citizens of pakistan are their serfs.

This problem is not unique to Pakistan. There are many documented stories of European and American military leadership failing to make the right military decisions in peacetime, and the frontline soldiers paying the price for them in wartime (in particular before the Second World War). However, peacetime military leaders have to be proficient in politics, and the best combination of politics and soldiery determine who gets promoted. This can sometimes result in unsatisfactory military leadership decision making, since politicians are infamous for making bad decisions.

Hence, peacetime military leaders are different from wartime military leaders. In times of war, Armed Forces shrug off the old, incapable leaders and put on a new coat of fresh, determined officers whose refusal to get involved in politics and second guess their objectives make them all the more deadly as commanders. It's just too bad that once peace comes around, these leaders are no longer suitable for the positions they earned.

fool me once---shame on you---fool me twice---

Shame on me! Good one MastanKhan.

George Bush couldn't remember the end of that saying either [Below].

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi Paface,

You are right about turf warfare amongst the armies of other nations---but then we also claim that we are a more professional millitary. We are a focussed and a dedicated lot. How many other nations have to stare down an enemy 8 times larger than them in man, material economy and weaponery.

I would disagree with your comment that peace time officers act differently in war---truthfully---in times of war---these animosities become more apparent. If you have not learnt to interact amongst each other properly during time of peace, then it is next to impossible to learn it during the war time. War history books are filled with examples of two commanding officers not liking each other---thus not coming te the rescue of the other in time.

What you have learnt in time of peace---is what you are going to practise in time of war---your training will take over. The closer the contact amongst the soldiers and officers of the different branches of millitary---the more the camaraderie amongst ranks---who would want to leave their friends alone in their moment of despair---.

Example---a sighting of enemy missile boats has been observed 200 miles of the port of karachi by the paf---the base commander would immediately launch an attack. Plus there should be officers of all branches should be imbede in the controll room of all other services to keep an eye over the decision making process.

Case in point----1971 war---if there were naval and army officers present when the report came in of the sighting of indian missile boats of the coast of karachi---the refusal of ACM Rahim to act on it could have been relayed to the higher authorities right away.

What I don't understand is that why the base commander at masroor didnot plan and launch a bombing mission right when he got the news. Once the planes were in the air---it would have been really difficult to get them back.

Or do the base commanders in paf do not have the authority to launch air combat or air defence missions during the time of war---they have to kowtow to the air chief all the time!!!

 

[PAFAce]

I would disagree with your comment that peace time officers act differently in war---truthfully---in times of war---these animosities become more apparent.

I think you misunderstood me. I meant to say, in wartime (at least in prolonged wars like WWII), inept and political military leaders are replaced by those who are more worthy and capable of military leadership. These leaders are much more open to cooperation with other leaders in order to make the best military decisions (rather than egotistical and political ones). Therefore, I agree with everything else you have said as well.

 

[HAIDER]

March 24, 2009: Recently, Qatar offered to give Indonesia ten Mirage 2000 jet fighters, and Indonesia turned down the gift. The problem was the high maintenance costs of the aircraft, and the fear that the French manufacturers of the aircraft, Dassault, might not survive the current recession. But the main problem was that Indonesia would have to establish a maintenance operation just for the Mirages. Currently, Indonesia is switching from American fighters (ten F-16s, and 16 F-5s) to Russian Su-27s and 30s. The Indonesian Air Force budget simply doesn't have the money to deal with just ten Mirage fighters.

Qatar has been trying to unload its 16 ton Mirage 2000 fighters for the last six years. It had hoped to sell them to India or Pakistan. India already has 45 Mirage 2000 warplanes. Pakistan has about 110 of the older, 14 ton, Mirage IIIs. The Mirage 2000 series is a newer design, although it looks like the older Mirage models. The Mirage III/5 is 1960s technology, the Mirage 2000 is 1970s and later. The Mirage 2000 was produced until 2007, and Quatar got its last ones in 1998. Qatar has always kept tight control over its defense spending, and apparently the very high tech Mirage 2000-5s are considered too expensive to operate. So they have been trying to get rid of them, without much success

 

[MastanKhan]

Haider,

I think that india and pakistan are the only two countries that can handle this plane at this stage ( french off course ). Other than that the qataris are in deep. This plane is too advanced for any other 3rd world country.

Qatar had to accept a lots of concessions from india to not make the sale to pakistan--eg linding rights of its airlines at different airports in india amongst other thinds.

 

[HAIDER]

Sir Mastan, we all know after France , Pakistan has biggest delta wing french fleet. Pakistani engineers are specialized and already work on this plane. I think PAF need to strike hard on Qatari nerves take it from them. No doubt non of Muslim world except Pakistan has ability to maintain these crafts. They still have 75% percent life...mean brand new...