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Pakistan's French Subs: A Threat

HASEEB66

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There's currently a minor flap going on about France selling submarines to Pakistan, including worries that this will give Pakistan a sub-based nuclear deterrent. We noticed that program back in 2002, and Pakistan's subs aren't a big concern. Not yet, anyway. Let me explain why.

Let's start with some background. Naval-Technology.com has details on the French Agosta class of submarines, and GlobalSecurity.org adds a cutaway diagram and details re: the Khalid-class version for export to Pakistan. Over at Roger Simon's blog, commenter Holmwood has some intelligent background on the Agosta-class subs and Pakistans likely level of warhead development.

The bottom line? Agostas are diesel-powered attack subs, not missile subs. The submarine also has a limited range when submerged, unlike a nuclear-powered boat that can cruise around the world without surfacing. It's possible to have an Agosta-class sub carry nuclear weapons, but you need to have very advanced warhead designs to fit them, and the missiles you fire tend to have fairly short ranges.

That isn't what Pakistan is building them for.

The Agostas are primarily designed as a counter to India's growing Navy, which will soon include an aircraft carrier that is also planned as a nuclear strike platform and command-and-control center. The deal for is to be finalized this December, with delivery in 2007-2008. It is also in India's long-term strategic interest to build its navy into the pre-eminent local force between the Straits of Malacca (Indonesia) and the Arabian Sea, and its carrier will force procurement and doctrinal changes that will accelerate this evolution. Something the USA may even find it smart to encourage.

Pakistan obviously wants a lever against that potential threat. They cannot compete in a surface ship race, and they know it - so submarines are their logical choice. Hence the Agostas.

With that said, the future is murkier. The logic of deterrence is likely to push Pakistan toward nuclear-armed submarines eventually, especially if they decide that India is getting a potential first strike capability on their land-based weapons. So watch for any acquisition of new sub designs in future years, though Tom Roberts is correct in stating that this will be the least of their challenges, and now that Holmwood has found us here at Winds, he adds more thoughtful commentary on Pakistan's strategic options.

To see the logic of submarine-based missiles in action on another front, the Israelis are already moving in the direction of sub-launched nukes, with some Dolphin class subs that have been modified to carry cruise missiles. Missile testing was carried out by a submarine in the Indian Ocean about 4 years ago, almost certainly in cooperation with India.


http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/005619.php
 
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There is the threat that Pakistan one day would develop a Nuke sub, but at the momment Pakistan is in Cradle stages it still need a huge modernization of its old fleet of vessels.
 
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Pakistan will buy Nuke subs..........for sure.......

Dear Airbus,

I doubt Pakistan can buy a nuclear submarine as in the world it is accepted that then Pakistan will have second strike capability against any nation in the world including USA. The world powers will not allow it. China is the closest ally of Pakistan with the technology to manufacture a nuke submarine but even they have to think twice about selling you one as it will mean USA selling the same to Taiwan or say Japan.

Also buying a nuclear submarine means spending a minimum USD 1 Billion. The Pakistani economy is definately one of the fastest growing economies in Asia but even it cannot
afford to splurge a billion dollars for a nuke submarine even if someone wants to sell it one.

Regards
 
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Although sales of Nuclear Submarines are permitted under the 1968 Non Proliferation Treaty its highly unlikely Pakistan under the current circumstances will be allowed to purchase one abroad, not even from China.

Therefor we've launched our own nuclear submarine programme that will result in a homebuilt design in 15-18 years.
There's a possibility to reduce the timeframe by acquiring the French Merlin Class subs which use a lot of technology from the Nuclear Barracuda Class Subs and can be converted to nuclear propulsion.

Unfortunately we will not know the existance of any such programme due security concerns till its actually comissioned.
 
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By default Pakistan acquiring nuke sub wont threat the world as it is being, you guys are forgetting SSBN needs suitable place to fire things from and with cover.

Pakistans coastline is small and it does not posess any mid-sea territory to perform such manuevoure.
 
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Although sales of Nuclear Submarines are permitted under the 1968 Non Proliferation Treaty its highly unlikely Pakistan under the current circumstances will be allowed to purchase one abroad, not even from China.

Therefor we've launched our own nuclear submarine programme that will result in a homebuilt design in 15-18 years.
There's a possibility to reduce the timeframe by acquiring the French Merlin Class subs which use a lot of technology from the Nuclear Barracuda Class Subs and can be converted to nuclear propulsion.

Unfortunately we will not know the existance of any such programme due security concerns till its actually comissioned.

Dear Neo,

I agree, if Pakistan wants a nuke sub then it will have to make one. Making a submarine I don't think is a problem for Pakistan but they will need to immense maybe even covert help to minaturise the power plant and the sub launched nuke missiles.

India was lucky to get these two techs from Russia (though clandestinely) eventhough their scientists will never accept that fact. Inspite of that it has taken them 15 years and they are still not near any closure.

I fear USA will not allow Pakistan to go that way as in some ways they fear Pakistan. Anyway time will tell.

Regards
 
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Neo,

Pakistan hasnt signed the NPT.
China dosnt have any to spare.
Scorepene has a lot from the Rubis and Barrcuda class. Marlin is still a paper project and nobody knows what it is about?
 
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Its not an easy path but nothing is impossible as we've shown in the past. Nobody would have believed in 1974 when India detonated the bomb that we'll master the technology within 10 years, even mighty USA coudn't stop us reaching our goals.

Nuclear subs are excluded from Non-Proliferation Treaty, US has no solid ground to prevent us from building one.
 
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Its not an easy path but nothing is impossible as we've shown in the past. Nobody would have believed in 1974 when India detonated the bomb that we'll master the technology within 10 years, even mighty USA coudn't stop us reaching our goals
Yes we all know how Pakistan mastered it.

Nuclear subs are excluded from Non-Proliferation Treaty, US has no solid ground to prevent us from building one

I am talking of the sale of Nuke sub from china. Ofcourse Pakistan is capable of building one, the question is time, just not in the near future.
The Threat I see from Pakistan is from its subs, though only 3, cant stop the IN, but definitly slow it down, or make it think twice.
And from Pakistani artillery, they have a reputation, and i believe it. They are damn good.
 
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Yes we all know how Pakistan mastered it.
Which is not what we're dicussing here.

I am talking of the sale of Nuke sub from china. Ofcourse Pakistan is capable of building one, the question is time, just not in the near future.
The Threat I see from Pakistan is from its subs, though only 3, cant stop the IN, but definitly slow it down, or make it think twice.
And from Pakistani artillery, they have a reputation, and i believe it. They are damn good.
Our future nuclear subs will be used to create second and third strike capacity from various parts of the Indian Ocean. We'll have conventional subs to slow IN down.
 
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