Pakistan's French Subs: A Threat

[Contrarian]

IN will not deploy all her ships in Arabia Sea to fight Pakistan, even at 50% you'll become vulnerable for retalliation from China on your eastern shores.

They dont need to. Our Western fleet is ALL it takes plus a lot more to take down PN completely. Not to mention, here is when the SethuSamudram project shows its true colour. It reduces the fleet reunification time b/w the Eastern and Western fleet in any of the two seas by 50% !

AND ROFL @ attack from China. No chance in hell they are EVER going to come to fight India over Pakistan. And FYI, that is the reason we want a carrier on both the fleets

ASW happens to be one of our specialities aswell, the Orions have the range and equippement to hold IN back.

Doood!!
The orions alone aint gonna do $hit. They are good when they have backing from a surface fleet, a huge naval aviation fleet. Otherwise the IN will be shooting down those Orions.

Actually i was talking about ASW without counting LRMP's! Hell i was talking about our frigates and corvettes specially designed for ASW! DRDO developed sonars are one of the finest ones!
But If you count that, then consider this--> 8 Boeing P-8I's are going to be bought soon. Quite out of the league of the Orions i'd say.

And it doesnt matter if PN is good in ASW or not. Cuz IN is not dependent on its subs. Subs form a small part of the overall punch of the IN, whereas subs are the ONLY credible weapon PN have. It matters whether we are good at it or not.

Again I donot underestimate IN's power, she will give us real hard time.

LOL. Understatement of the century.

And our doctrine is based around quick retalliation and even first strike with accurate missiles.
All western naval bases are well in range of our conventional missiles, Babur LACM is feared within IN as you lack detection at this point.

And you think you will obliterate the IN while they are all in the dock waiting for war to happen?!?!?!?!!
Even before the war starts officially, the Western fleet will all be deployed in the Arabian Sea, you arent gonna find a stinking patrol boat resting in the naval bases. And you think LACM is gonna strike ships in sea?

The only thing strikes at the bases would do is scuttle the further ship building capacity. Then again, our ships are build all over the country, not only in a couple of docks on teh western coast.

Remember, any future full scale war will be decided within days, thats why we're both nuclear powers.
IN can not achieve the goals you described within days...

Wait and watch. It would be a blitzkreig. All the surface combatants of PN would be destroyed in a couple of days. Only the threat of subs would remain.

But that is MORE than sufficient to effect a blockade.

 

[Contrarian]

Keep laughing, I expect you too.
I never said the China would fight for us but still you cannot afford to weaken your position in Bay of Bengal or The Andaman sea, China is lurking around the corner, even OoE won't deny that.

Neo. That is the reason we have an Eastern fleet. And that we plan initially a 3 carrier force, then 4.

One carrier to support each fleet. Let the Chinese come

 

[joey]

These Subs are a threat to us, but we are investing heavily into ASW.
We know the littoral indian ocean waters very well.

The best thing to do would be provide constant screen to carrier group with 6-8 sub, and keep naval blockade on while pounding the beach with long range LACM and perhaps one or two sorties by planes after the SAM sites are gone.

 

[Keysersoze]

These Subs are a threat to us, but we are investing heavily into ASW.
We know the littoral indian ocean waters very well.

The best thing to do would be provide constant screen to carrier group with 6-8 sub, and keep naval blockade on while pounding the beach with long range LACM and perhaps one or two sorties by planes after the SAM sites are gone.

That plan would work except for a few things....

A)Any blockade would have to be close enough to be picked up by the AWACS which also can pick up any LACM launches allowing interception.

B)As the British navy found out during the Falklands, ground based attack planes can cause quite a few problems.

c)The subs would not have to attack the fleets directly. they could attack the ancillary ships which would have to resupply the consumables such as missiles etc

 

[irfan1173]

AoA
I still don't understand what role Indian Navy will play in a conflict with us. In case people are not aware 90% of our trade is done through foreign owned ships.In case of conflict most of them will stop visiting pakistani ports because insurance costs will be very high.
All our ports are within the range of su-30. IAF can easily cripple the ports by couple of bombing runs. hell even one ship bombed and crippled at the mouth of any port can stop all shipping lines. So what role will their navy play???

 

[Adux]

Be Stationed At Lohegaon Base, Pune




Dated 24/6/2007
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The 'Indian Express' quotes Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief (AOC-in-C) of South Western Air Command (SWAC), Air Marshal K D Singh saying that the Lohegaon Air Force base will get a new Su-30 MKI squadron by April 2008.

The comment was made in Pune on Friday (22nd June 2007).

"Pune was primarily developed as a base for the Sukhois and a lot of investment has gone into this," Singh said. Currently, the Lohegaon Air Force base has two squadrons of Su-30 MKI-Lightnings and Rhinos. The Su-30 MKIs will roll out from the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited factory at Nasik. Recently, the Jaguar Squadron was shifted and located to Jamnagar airbase in Gujarat for strategic reasons.

Lohegaon airbase is the raising base for Su-30 MKIs and once all the squadrons are raised, some of them will be shifted to other airbases in the country. Though IAF has a sanctioned strength of 39.5 squadrons, currently there are only 33 squadrons that are operational.

The Su-30MKI version is the ultimate development of the Su-27 series. Though a variant of Su-30, the Su-30 MKI is significantly more advanced than the basic Su-30 or the Chinese Su-30 MKK aircraft. Its avionics, aerodynamic features and components are similar to the Su-35. This variant has significant upgrades on it from the basic Su-30 MK version. The aircraft was jointly designed by Russia's Sukhoi and India's HAL.

r

 

[Adux]

Those are maritime attack jags, IN dedicatated
check the map for jamnagar, you will understand the signifance of this

it was in pune before

 

[joey]

That plan would work except for a few things....

A)Any blockade would have to be close enough to be picked up by the AWACS which also can pick up any LACM launches allowing interception.

B)As the British navy found out during the Falklands, ground based attack planes can cause quite a few problems.

c)The subs would not have to attack the fleets directly. they could attack the ancillary ships which would have to resupply the consumables such as missiles etc

The subs can provide a screen to the whole battlegroup.

And our Barak 2 is being designed specifically keeping in mind falklands

 

[Adux]

I love the new IN deployments, very aggressive

 

[Bull]

IN will not deploy all her ships in Arabia Sea to fight Pakistan, even at 50% you'll become vulnerable for retalliation from China on your eastern shores.

And for what purpose would Chineese spend their dollars to attack our eastern fort. To occupy vizag / calcutta. Its totally amtuersih to think that in a war btw Indi and Pak , a thrid party would walk in to seize advantage. You are speaking abt triggering a WW3.

Who came to your rescue in the prev 3 wars?

ASW happens to be one of our specialities aswell, the Orions have the range and equippement to hold IN back.

How many do you have? Look at the money china has spend in modernising PLAN and still they are at par with IN. PN is not in the game at all.

All western naval bases are well in range of our conventional missiles, Babur LACM is feared within IN as you lack detection at this point.

By the time you have babur in Pn we will have phalcons and possibly P-8s.

IN can not achieve the goals you described within days...

How many days can Pak fight a war?

 

[Adux]

Those Maritime Attack Jags have been placed in Jamnagar, it will reduce their engagement time by atleast 50%; Pune is too far down , Those fighter planes can attack PN, in Pakistani coast itself.

 

[Keysersoze]

AoA
I still don't understand what role Indian Navy will play in a conflict with us. In case people are not aware 90% of our trade is done through foreign owned ships.In case of conflict most of them will stop visiting pakistani ports because insurance costs will be very high.
All our ports are within the range of su-30. IAF can easily cripple the ports by couple of bombing runs. hell even one ship bombed and crippled at the mouth of any port can stop all shipping lines. So what role will their navy play???

Well let me burst you bubble of gloom with a few pearls of wisdom.

A) You assume that whilst the SU-30's are busy bombing up and down the ports thats the PAF will be doing nothing. Guess what........they will probably try and do something.

B)There are enough AWACS aircraft to keep a watch on pretty much all of PAKistan AND a large chunk of India as well as the territorial waters. As well as missiles that can extend into India. Phalcons have been mentioned but there are only three of them so far and the additional order touted has not yet surfaced. As for P-8's they will not be in U.S. service until 2013 probably later for others

c) Mr Adux has pointed out the Jaguars stationed near the coast. To that I say, "so what?" There are land based aircraft as well as missiles that can play a part there. Anyway a few LACMS with airfield denial munitions should keep those guys busy.

d)If (as has been speculated) China uses Gwadar as a port. They simply have to say " In the interest of business we will escort our merchant vessels to and from their destinations." That will pretty much scupper the blockade whilst at the same time free up forces for defence.

e)The carriers that India will be using are not powerful enough to power project (like a American carrier) They were designed with bastion defence in mind (the designs like the Gorshkov are an example of this) They don't have steam catapults which can launch heavier aircraft with significant payloads. This reduces the combat radius of the carriers. Also they are not nuclear powered so they would have to have the ancillaries which in turn would have to be re-loaded. If they are proposing sending subs to guard them as well. then they will need a hell of a lot of subs merely to maintain the presence. This would present a juicy opportunity to the Pak subs.

 

[Adux]

Well let me burst you bubble of gloom with a few pearls of wisdom.

Hardly.....

A) You assume that whilst the SU-30's are busy bombing up and down the ports thats the PAF will be doing nothing. Guess what........they will probably try and do something.

PAF will have to look after IAF, while the IN will bombing those ports. You are talking about an enemey which has higher amount of resources and techonology advantage.

B)There are enough AWACS aircraft to keep a watch on pretty much all of PAKistan AND a large chunk of India as well as the territorial waters. As well as missiles that can extend into India. Phalcons have been mentioned but there are only three of them so far and the additional order touted has not yet surfaced. As for P-8's they will not be in U.S. service until 2013 probably later for others

Those Awacs will have to push deep into Pakistani Territory, They can operate anywhere near the border. They will be shot down. Phalcons higher range gives them the option of being deep inside Indian territory. Indian ships biggest strength is their ASW capacity and their Anti-ship capacity. What they lack is AAW.

c) Mr Adux has pointed out the Jaguars stationed near the coast. To that I say, "so what?" There are land based aircraft as well as missiles that can play a part there. Anyway a few LACMS with airfield denial munitions should keep those guys busy.

Not if they take out those LACM's first. Since IAF will be attacking force here, these site's prime targets. PAF will go nuts with the sheer amounts targets it has engage in a defesive posture, and also attacking the targets inside India to gain tactical advantage. Overload will be an under-statement.

d)If (as has been speculated) China uses Gwadar as a port. They simply have to say " In the interest of business we will escort our merchant vessels to and from their destinations." That will pretty much scupper the blockade whilst at the same time free up forces for defence.

Chinese will just move away. They will be given time to move away. They will just "fade away". This is the world's most nuclearized area. No country has ever tried to interfere when India was at war. In 1971 USS enterprise tried to, Admiral Ghorshkov's Nuke sub made sure they just took their people and "faded away".

e)The carriers that India will be using are not powerful enough to power project (like a American carrier) They were designed with bastion defence in mind (the designs like the Gorshkov are an example of this) They don't have steam catapults which can launch heavier aircraft with significant payloads. This reduces the combat radius of the carriers. Also they are not nuclear powered so they would have to have the ancillaries which in turn would have to be re-loaded. If they are proposing sending subs to guard them as well. then they will need a hell of a lot of subs merely to maintain the presence. This would present a juicy opportunity to the Pak subs.

India Doesnt have to project einstien, we are neighbours. We arent attacking some atlantic country. IN can refuel their aircrafts in air. Changes the whole equations doesnt it. Our subs have LACM capability. We have better subs in far larger numbers. 6 Scorpene's and 6 Advanced Kilo's and 3 HDW 209 against 3 Ag 90-Bs and 3 U-214, plus added better ASW capability of our ships. That is 15 worldclass subs against 6 worldclass subs.

Attack Overload.

 

[Contrarian]

Hardly.....
Indian ships biggest strength is their ASW capacity and their Anti-ship capacity. What they lack is AAW.

Sorry, the AAW of IN ships will be quite complete once the Barak NG is installed on them. We already have Kashtan/Phalanx as the level one, Barak I for Level two and the Barak NG soon to be installed as the level III.

It does not get better than this for individual ships, seeing as almost every ship in IN will be installed with these.

What we need further to defend against a barage of missiles against the homeland of carrier are some AEGIS destroyers, but that is a different category. As far as personal protection against ships go, the three tiered defence that is being installed is much more than sufficient.

 

[Contrarian]

Well let me burst you bubble of gloom with a few pearls of wisdom.

B)There are enough AWACS aircraft to keep a watch on pretty much all of PAKistan AND a large chunk of India as well as the territorial waters. As well as missiles that can extend into India. Phalcons have been mentioned but there are only three of them so far and the additional order touted has not yet surfaced. As for P-8's they will not be in U.S. service until 2013 probably later for others

As Adux mentioned. The Pakistani AWACS will not be able to see much in Indian land territory. Only the maritime one. The Pakistani awacs on account of their short detection range- both by technological limitation on the Erieye as well as the limitations imposed by their plane's capacity, will ensure that they cannot look deep inside the Indian land as PAF will never in hell make them fly close to the border. They will be somewhere safe on teh Pakistani western border. Indo Pak border will be exploding with IAF constantly attacking and the army's fighting. An AWACS is just too important an asset for PAF to place anywhere near the border. Also seeing as India is acquiring the Russian AWACS killer missile, I forget the name its Kh-something.

India is not dependent on the P-8's for its ASW capability. The expected arrival of LRMP's form a very very minor part in the entire ASW mechanism. India has invested HEAVILY in ASW which ranges from almost every ship in the IN arsenal to the specially designed ASW corvettes, P-15, P-15A.

c) Mr Adux has pointed out the Jaguars stationed near the coast. To that I say, "so what?" There are land based aircraft as well as missiles that can play a part there. Anyway a few LACMS with airfield denial munitions should keep those guys busy.

LOL. How many bases will Pakistan use LACM's on? There are just TOO many, the planes like Su-30 can fly off from bases that are deep in India because of their huge range.

And this is not to mention that most likely Pakistani AF bases would be bombed as well with LACM's and runway denial munitions (hint, read the latest offer by Raytheon to offer Paveway ToT). India already has bought Paveway in the past.

d)If (as has been speculated) China uses Gwadar as a port. They simply have to say " In the interest of business we will escort our merchant vessels to and from their destinations." That will pretty much scupper the blockade whilst at the same time free up forces for defence.

As adu said.

e)The carriers that India will be using are not powerful enough to power project (like a American carrier) They were designed with bastion defence in mind (the designs like the Gorshkov are an example of this) They don't have steam catapults which can launch heavier aircraft with significant payloads. This reduces the combat radius of the carriers. Also they are not nuclear powered so they would have to have the ancillaries which in turn would have to be re-loaded. If they are proposing sending subs to guard them as well. then they will need a hell of a lot of subs merely to maintain the presence. This would present a juicy opportunity to the Pak subs.

ROFL...Sorry mate. The carrier groups would be defended by atleast one sub. Because there are plenty of subs as well. I repeat again, IN has invested hell of a lot on ASW, the P-15/P-15A which escort the carrier would make sure there are no subs around. The ASW corvettes were made so that the CBG does not depend on subs for ASW protection.