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Pakistan's Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircrafts

the min range of ks 172 is 200 km and max could be between 300-400km read properly and answer

So if the Erieye comes closer than 200km , it wont lock on ?

Dear, the Min range you are talking about is the ACTUAL range of the missile, and the Max range you are talking about is the "SPECULATED" range by media and fanbois.
 
we never said that phalcons are alien technology .the new phalcons are only with india and israil and no need to say that israil tech is one of the best in the world the phalcons are better than e-3
p://www.ocnus.net/cgi-bin/exec/view.cgi?archive=102&num=26121

and so it was u who's trying to satisfy ur dirty ego not us

You forgot to point out one thing, with your source,

Defence & Arms Last Updated: May 4th, 2007 - 10:48:12
Israel Now Flying New Phalcon AWACS
By Aero News 2/10/06
Oct 4, 2006, 09:19


Man it was something (alien technology),
almost 2 & half years ago not now,(as source last updated)
(Dirty Ego)
 
the erieye were built in 1997 and the information i gave abt erieye is of 2007 and we cant expect it improve so much in 2 years because to develop a radar it takes years even pakisthan has ordered erieye many years back
 
So if the Erieye comes closer than 200km , it wont lock on ?

Dear, the Min range you are talking about is the ACTUAL range of the missile, and the Max range you are talking about is the "SPECULATED" range by media and fanbois.


ur r wrong mr sapper the min range is not the actual range of the missile the missile is in development and the missile range will be 300-400km
 
It is highly misleading to use maximum range to make any declaration as to which system is superior. Keep in mind that radar detection rely on Line-of-Sight (LoS). That mean from sea level to a certain altitude, neither the Eyrie nor the Phalcon is able to attain their maximum radar detection range.

This is an example of a nomograph...

Figure 3-9 Radar Line-of-Sight Range Nomograph

Here is where an airborne radar system differs from a ground antenna: As altitude increases, at some point, the radar's main beam must begin to sort of angle downward to maintain a fix on the Earth, unless the goal is to detect incoming objects from space.

Here is a chart illustrating the relationship between LoS and altitude...

Radio Line of Sight

At 10ft the transmitter can 'see' to about 4nm. At 15,000ft it is about 150nm. At 43,000ft it is about 260nm. Airliners' cruising altitude is around 35,000ft max, giving an LoS of between 220-230nm if someone want to transmit to the aircraft. Operationally speaking, an AWACS is best at the same cruising altitude as airliners do.

Example...

"Why Saudi Arabia Needs The AWACS"
The "AWACS" can fly up to 40,000 feet altitude but its radar elevation angle is optimized for operations at 29,000 feet.

NATO AWACS - Frequently Asked Questions
Q8. What is the E-3A's operational altitude?

A8. The E-3A normally operates at 30,000 ft (9,150m), which allows for optimum radar performance.

Why around 30,000-something ft alt best for AWACS? Clutter horizon.

All radar systems have a clutter region or threshold. These are detectable but UNWANTED signals such as cosmic background radiation, television, cellular communications, etc...etc...The Earth itself with uneven terrain, water and vegetation will produce unwanted radar reflections. The radar system will filter out these unwanted signals, anything else above the clutter region will be tagged as 'suspect'. Further, as the AWACS aircraft flies, changes in the Earth's topography, including bodies of water, will produce uneven clutter returns. Over a known area, we can program the system to remember the area's clutter threshold but it is best to have the system make on-the-fly adjustments. This is happening so fast in the background that it is tranparent to the users, as it should be. But as the transmitter gains altitude, if the main beam does not maintain radar contact with the Earth to establish this important clutter threshold, the system eventually will be looking at outer space and filter out the very low cosmic background radiation signals. Useless, unless the system is looking for the Space Shuttle or the ISS.

I said elsewhere here and I will repeat: That with radar, larger antenna is usually better. Power output is proportional to array dimension. Larger array mean a narrower main beam which equal to better target resolutions. But for an airborne transmitter, there is a limit to array dimensions before the radar antenna system itself become aerodynamically dangerous. That is why we have different AWACS configurations, from a rotodome to side mounted arrays, anything to increase power output to have greater detection distance.

Clutter horizon is properly defined as the furthest distance (point) on the Earth that a main beam can reach and still have sufficient radar echoes for the system to establish a clutter rejection threshold. Imagine sitting on the floor, touch the floor with one's hand, then walk the fingers away from one's body until arm's length. That point is called the 'clutter horizon'. Arm's length is antenna power output. Shorter arm will have shorter distance reached, hence shorter clutter horizon. So the reason why AWACS aircrafts are usually at between 30,000 to 40,000 ft altitude is because even though we want to be as high as possible, we are limited by current antenna engineering and by the need to establish Earth clutter horizon. This altitude range is good enough for us to see -- distance wise -- against targets at above or below the transmitter.

Moving on...

Just because a radar, ground or airborne, claim a longer detection range than its competitors, it does not mean the system itself is overall superior.

System design, manufacture and even usage can affect the performance parameters. For an AWACS platform, range accuracy is important. Range accuracy is the measure of a target as indicated versus absolute. A second important parameter is range resolution. This is crucial with multiple targets, especially if they are flying close together. Poor range resolution, or radar resolution cell, will display two (or more) targets as one, leading the operator to a potentially negative tactical position.

RADAR *PULSE *CHARACTERISTICS
RANGE RESOLUTION.—A radar’s resolution is its ability to display multiple targets clearly and separately.

Longer pulses have poorer range resolution. Targets too close together lose definition and become blurred.
Longer pulses have poorer range resolution, but longer pulses have greater range because of more power, as indicated by the same source above...
Generally, longer pulses emitted from a radar return more power, thus increased target information and data reliability. Longer pulses have the disadvantage in that fine details within the return echo may be lost.
In today's modern militaries, preferences leans towards multi-role aircrafts, that mean from one moment I may face multiple bombers to the next moment those same bombers become fighters, battling their way out of the battlefield, land at home, refuel, rearm and come back to attack me again. My enemy is also my next door neighbor, not someone who must travel literally thousands of nm across sovereign airspaces that may or may not be hospitable to him. So which is better, greater range at the expense of ambiguous multiple target information, or less effective detection range but superior multiple target resolutions?

There are more important factors regarding potentially hostile targets. They are target detection, classification and identification. Target detection is self explanatory. Target classification is like saying 'big airplane' and 'small airplane'. Large aircrafts like the C-5 or the 747 airliner do not the same flight profile as fighter aircrafts. Their flight profile is that of a steady heading, altitude and speed, from one location point to the next. If I ignore a C-5 for a minute, odds are very good that despite the few miles he traveled, I would be able to locate and track him again. Target identification is more precise, that is when I can say 'C-5' instead of 'large transport', or 'F-16' instead of 'small aircraft'. Target classification is based upon profiles that can be common to many aircrafts. Target identification is based upon unique physical characteristics possess by one or very few. Target classification is like the generic 'mother' while target identification is MY mother. How many fighters out there whose intake is of the same location, dimensions and shape as the F-16's intake? On the other hand, the intakes of the MIG-25 and F-15 are nearly identical with the F-14's intakes close enough to the others'. I cannot afford to ignore fighters.

CombatAircraft.com - Formations

Those are the standard formations for flights of small and rapidly maneuverable aircrafts. A radar system with poor range resolution, meaning unable to distinguish individual fighters from each other in a single resolution cell, COULD mislead me into believing there is one or two large transports coming my way. As this 'transport' closes the distance, by the time my superior range radar managed to classify these aircrafts into armed fighter-bombers, not bomb laden F-15Es or runway cratering Tornados, it may be too late. The further from me that I can at least classify a target the more time I will have in formulating an appropriate response. The reason why AWACS sales brochures focuses so much on detection range is because it is the easiest figure to lure people into buying. Or into debates.

Clear as mud?
 
Clear as mud?

Thank You Very Much for your post Sir, it was very informative. Just hope our Indian friends read your post and get this over there head that range is not everything, especially both enemies share borders.
 
nicely summed up sir!
i guess it can end the long tiring debate regarding Erieye vs AWACS and blah blah,,,
i hope we can adopt this style where we can discuss the technical points of the system rahter then compare them with other and flame up a war,,,

great work,
thanks,

regards!
 
the erieye were built in 1997 and the information i gave abt erieye is of 2007 and we cant expect it improve so much in 2 years because to develop a radar it takes years even pakisthan has ordered erieye many years back

they were ordered only after specific requirements and parameters could be met
 
ur r wrong mr sapper the min range is not the actual range of the missile the missile is in development and the missile range will be 300-400km

So if it is under development please refrain from bringing it in. No body is talking here about FT-2000A AWACS killer from China.

FT-2000
Country: China
Basing: Land
Details

In a report to Congress on May 28, 2004, the U.S. Department of Defense highlighted the major improvements that China has made to its air and missile defense systems over the past few years, including “[the] development of an antiradiation SAM [surface-to-air missile], most likely intended to target AWACS [Airborne Warning and Control System] aircraft and standoff jamming platforms.”(1)



The report was referring specifically to the FT-2000, a Chinese anti-radiation surface-to-air missile system designed to counter electronic jamming aircraft, AWACS aircraft, and other air radiation wave targets. Developed and manufactured by the China National Precision Machinery Import and Export Corporation (CPMIEC) during the late 1990s, the FT-2000 is also believed to be capable of destroying tactical ballistic missiles, similar to the U.S. Patriot and the Russian S-300P systems on which it is based.(2) At present, two versions exist, the mobile FT-2000 and the fixed-based FT-2000A.(3)



The FT-2000 is the direct result of a concerted effort by China to eliminate an inherent vulnerability in medium- and long-range surface-to-air missiles: jamming. For decades, air and missile defense systems like the Patriot and the S-300P have been susceptible to advanced techniques designed to confuse or immobile their interceptor missiles and keep them from reaching their targets. One of the most common jamming devices is S- and C-band airborne noise. If used properly, this and other deception mechanisms lead to what is known as the “suppression of enemy air defenses” and allows attacking aircraft and missiles to proceed to their targets without challenge.(4)



The FT-2000 was designed to neutralize and counter these airborne jamming devices. It contains a passive radar target seeker programmed to detect the specific electromagnetic signals emanating from its target. Essentially, the FT-2000 uses its target’s own jamming frequencies against it. In addition, the FT-2000 has a passive homing system that does not transmit electromagnetic waves, thus minimizing the chances that its enemies will detect it in time.(5) The system is equipped with modified HQ-9 interceptor missiles, each of which is 6.8 meters long, 0.47 meters in diameter, and has a launch weight of 1,300 kilograms. The HQ-9 missiles give the FT-2000 a range of 12 to 100 kilometers and an operating altitude of 3 to 20 kilometers. The mobile system is transported and launched on an 8 X 8 cross-country launcher with four canisters that resemble those used by the S-300P.(6)



In addition to the mobile FT-2000, China has developed a fixed-based variant, the FT-2000A. According to a recent Chinese sales brochure, the FT-2000A uses a highly-modified HQ-2 missile that has been equipped with passive radio frequency homing seekers. Each HQ-2 is armed with a 60-kilogram fragmentation warhead and has a range of 60 kilometers and a maximum altitude of 18 kilometers. Reports indicate that each FT-2000A battery consists of 12 missile launchers, each containing one missile, and a central control station. The central control station has one master passive sensor and three auxiliary passive sensors. The four sensors are capable of triangulating on electromagnetic signals in the 2- and 6-GHz frequency range, which covers most AWACS aircraft and other air radiation wave targets, thus earning it the nickname “AWACS killer.”(7)


In addition to its role as an anti-radiation missile system, the FT-2000 also has advanced capability against tactical ballistic missiles, although this point is seldom mentioned. As Richard D. Fisher, Jr. has pointed out, Chinese officials at the 1998 Zhuhai Air Show—shortly after plans for the FT-2000 had been unveiled—stated that the FT-2000 was being developed into an active-guided missile that eventually would have the ability to shoot down short- and medium-range ballistic missiles.(8) Since the FT-2000 is based on comprehensive systems such as the U.S. Patriot and the S-300P, it is no surprise that it too has anti-missile capabilities.



In October 2003, it was reported that China had closed a deal with its neighbor, Pakistan, to supply the latter with an unspecified number of FT-2000 missiles to counter India’s early warning capabilities. The China-Pakistan deal followed India’s own arrangement with Israel and Russia to install three Israeli Phalcon AWACS on Ilyushin Il-76 freighter aircraft, thus giving it an airborne early warning system.(9) According to various news sources, shortly after India announced its acquisition of the Phalcon radars, Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, the head of Pakistan’s air force, visited China and conveyed Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf’s wish to purchase an unspecified number of FT-2000s.(10)



The recent China-Pakistan arrangement may just be an attempt to maintain the delicate balance of power between India and Pakistan, both of which possess nuclear weapons. Yet according to an article published in Malaysia in January 2003, the People’s Liberation Army is eager to export the FT-2000 around the globe.(11) It is entirely possible that “AWACS killer” air and missile defense systems like the FT-2000 will soon proliferate throughout Asia, Europe, and the Middle East, a development that would introduce a multitude of strategic problems for the U.S. and its allies.




MissileThreat :: FT-2000
 
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Final Tests of First Erieye AEW&C Aircraft for Pakistan Have Started


(Source: Saab AB; issued Oct. 21, 2009)




The first Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C aircraft for Pakistan has begun its final tests in Sweden. (Saab photo)In a ceremony in Linköping today Saab and the Pakistan Air Force celebrated the start of the final tests of the new Erieye AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning and Control) aircraft.

The aircraft is currently undergoing system tests in Sweden and will continue with follow on testing in Pakistan later this year. The tests aim is to evaluate the complete system including aircraft, radar, C2 system, communication and live situation picture including integration into the Pakistan Air Force’s Command & Control Ground Environment.

Saab signed a contract in October 2005 to supply an airborne surveillance system for Pakistan. The contract came into effect in June 2006. The system consists of three parts; an airborne segment, a ground based segment and logistics and support service. The airborne segment includes Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with the airborne early warning radar system Erieye.

Pakistan has had a long standing requirement for an airborne system to perform continuous surveillance of air territory, borders and the sea. The new airborne surveillance system will, together with existing ground based radars, provide a more detailed picture to decision makers in order to conduct more efficient rescue operations as well as to counter potential threats to national security.


Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers’ changing needs.

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Final Tests of First Erieye AEW&C Aircraft for Pakistan Have Started
 
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