Pakistan's acquisition of the U-214

[Mughal-Prince]

I hope after this regime is wraped up we may go back to the deal ... but its just a hope .

 

[Arsalan]

I hope after this regime is wraped up we may go back to the deal ... but its just a hope .

it would be good, rather great but is very unlikely to happen..

it seems that any new western sub, if ever joins PN, will now be after chines deal and that perhaps mean 10 years time.
this mean that at that time, we will be getting something that we don't know about at this point of time..

regards!

 

[shekhar]

come on..
you must atleast do some basic research before chanting such base less arguments..

Germans kept on pushing PN to get the deal and it was our mistake that it went down.
the germans were nevr reluctant to sell us the sub.
moreover the idea was to jointly order 9 sub (3 PN + 6 Turkish Navy). is india going for more then this????

i will appreciate that you provide a source to back this claim.

regards!

all defence deal of india has a string attatched that "this weapon (which india purchase) is not for sale to pakistan"
so for germans options are either india or pakistan and as far as turkey is concerned if it can be pak and turkey (3+6)then it can also be india and turkey (6+6) or may be (9+6)
now use ur "biased" mind if u are german which deal u would go for

 

[Arsalan]

all defence deal of india has a string attatched that "this weapon (which india purchase) is not for sale to pakistan"
so for germans options are either india or pakistan and as far as turkey is concerned if it can be pak and turkey (3+6)then it can also be india and turkey (6+6) or may be (9+6)
now use ur "biased" mind if u are german which deal u would go for

instead of using biased minds why dont we agree to be realistic,,

do you think Turley would have dumpled pakistan and joined hands with India??

i would like you to get the facts straight, until last moment, Germany was there pushing ON to go for U214 and it was only when government changes and Zardari opted to look towards French for obvious reason that the deal went cold.

regards!

 

[shekhar]

instead of using biased minds why dont we agree to be realistic,,

do you think Turley would have dumpled pakistan and joined hands with India??

i would like you to get the facts straight, until last moment, Germany was there pushing ON to go for U214 and it was only when government changes and Zardari opted to look towards French for obvious reason that the deal went cold.

regards!

its not about turkey who has to decide its germany who has to make decision
and mark my words pakistan will its not only about u 214 when it comes to any high end defence toys pakistan has always been denied and will always be denied except few situational lollypops

 

[TOPGUN]

its not about turkey who has to decide its germany who has to make decision
and mark my words pakistan will its not only about u 214 when it comes to any high end defence toys pakistan has always been denied and will always be denied except few situational lollypops

Oh really and who made you the mind reader about what Pakistan will or can get or can't get ?

 

[MZUBAIR]

its not about turkey who has to decide its germany who has to make decision
and mark my words pakistan will its not only about u 214 when it comes to any high end defence toys pakistan has always been denied and will always be denied except few situational lollypops

Then Y we got SABER 86 then F-16's when they were at the peak.
We are still getiing worlds best 4th generation fighter F-16 Block 52.

U214 deal is stuck coz of following probs

1) German dont want to sell it with TOT
2) Few political issues
3) Money transaction processes

Its not easy to get any thing with TOT, even u will be facing same TOT probs in MRCA deal....

Batter aviod flamming

 

[Arsalan]

Then Y we got SABER 86 then F-16's when they were at the peak.
We are still getiing worlds best 4th generation fighter F-16 Block 52.

U214 deal is stuck coz of following probs

1) German dont want to sell it with TOT
2) Few political issues
3) Money transaction processes

Its not easy to get any thing with TOT, even u will be facing same TOT probs in MRCA deal....

Batter aviod flamming

i beg to differ with point # 2.
pn was not asking for the third one to be build in Karachi and that was with limited ToT. it was not denied.
actually you are spot on with point# 1 & 3 and that is what destroyed the deal.

however, let us stick to the topic, if the Indian want to think that they are such a super power that they can influence any defence deal of the worls, let them live in there wonder land

regards!

 

[Mughal-Prince]

it seems that any new western sub, if ever joins PN, will now be after chines deal and that perhaps mean 10 years time.

Sir, please explain!

 

[Arsalan]

Sir, please explain!

for time being the U214 or french deal are off the table. PN is looking forward to chinese option. we need to evaluate them and get modifications as we always do with chinese systems.
then the production will start, all this process will atleast take 5 years for first of the platforms to be inducted.
only after we have got these subs, then PN may look for other westren options if it ever does..

however this is my personal point of view, based of timeline of such projects.

regards!

 

[shekhar]

Then Y we got SABER 86 then F-16's when they were at the peak.
We are still getiing worlds best 4th generation fighter F-16 Block 52.

U214 deal is stuck coz of following probs

1) German dont want to sell it with TOT
2) Few political issues
3) Money transaction processes

Its not easy to get any thing with TOT, even u will be facing same TOT probs in MRCA deal....

Batter aviod flamming

thats why i said situational lollypops
just compare how many f16 pak got and how many other countries got

 

[Jigs]

Then Y we got SABER 86 then F-16's when they were at the peak.
We are still getiing worlds best 4th generation fighter F-16 Block 52.

U214 deal is stuck coz of following probs

1) German dont want to sell it with TOT
2) Few political issues
3) Money transaction processes

Its not easy to get any thing with TOT, even u will be facing same TOT probs in MRCA deal....

Batter aviod flamming

TOT as in like what ? Their AIP technology ? They wont sell that to anyone period. Germany wouldn't be a good option if pakistan is looking for TOT to begin with. Better to go to China for that.

I think the issue here is money. Same reason the Milgem deal with turkey fell through.

 

[araz]

I am not an expert on naval matters by any stroke of imagination, but I suspect the way PN looks at the problem is that they want to substitute quality with quantity. I think the recent experience with the 90B may have given the idea that the chinese tech is in the ball park of 90B and perhaps a bit better. It may not be as good as the german stuff, but there are 2 or3 distinct advantages to buy Chinese. There is no beating them on cost to benefit, as you can compensate (with some reservations of course) quality with quantity. Secondly you can gather local experience in the building of the vessel itself, as the chinese will transfer technology and you will have access to their best(for this we remain grateful to them). I dont know whether like PAF, PN will be able to contribute in designing and the tech that the chinese put on the vessel, but it seems less likely(though I reiterate that I dont know enough to hazard a guess)
Similarly upgrade and additions will be a lot easier. As a supplement to this, PN will have a say in what it wants on the vessel and appropriate changes will be made by our brothers in China without too much of a fuss, something that would not have happened with the germans. However tech nological gaps may well rewmain and some form of supplementation may be required. I honestly dont know whether something will come out of the U214 deal but at the moment it seems unlikely. whether the deal will be as sweet in 5 yrs time given the advances in the chinese Industrial empire, is something that remains to be seen.
Araz

 

[TaimiKhan]

I am not an expert on naval matters by any stroke of imagination, but I suspect the way PN looks at the problem is that they want to substitute quality with quantity. I think the recent experience with the 90B may have given the idea that the chinese tech is in the ball park of 90B and perhaps a bit better. It may not be as good as the german stuff, but there are 2 or3 distinct advantages to buy Chinese. There is no beating them on cost to benefit, as you can compensate (with some reservations of course) quality with quantity. Secondly you can gather local experience in the building of the vessel itself, as the chinese will transfer technology and you will have access to their best(for this we remain grateful to them). I dont know whether like PAF, PN will be able to contribute in designing and the tech that the chinese put on the vessel, but it seems less likely(though I reiterate that I dont know enough to hazard a guess)
Similarly upgrade and additions will be a lot easier. As a supplement to this, PN will have a say in what it wants on the vessel and appropriate changes will be made by our brothers in China without too much of a fuss, something that would not have happened with the germans. However tech nological gaps may well rewmain and some form of supplementation may be required. I honestly dont know whether something will come out of the U214 deal but at the moment it seems unlikely. whether the deal will be as sweet in 5 yrs time given the advances in the chinese Industrial empire, is something that remains to be seen.
Araz

Bulls Eye Sir, Germans initially had agreed for little customization in the sub on our request to integrate the Babur Cruise Missile, but may have later balked out due to some external pressure, one of the reason German sub became little bit less attractive as we badly needed this integration, secondly kickbacks became another issue.

PN after it was told about the Chinese latest sub, did became interested due to its quality, plus the free hand of integrating it with anything also made it more attractive.

Chinese have been doing lot of research and development in the Subs, which is evident from the number of subs they have added, plus the number of new variants they have produced, showing serious R&D is happening in their submarine sector, just like their latest ships which are totally new and eye openers.

Plus, PN may be now looking at the future scenario, Chinese subs may be at 90B or little better today, but in 3-5 years time period, they will be more and more better with time, so that is the real catch, we get to have local manufacturing capability as well as whatever advancement they do, we will have the access to integrate in our future subs which we buy from them.

 

[TaimiKhan]

i was just trying to connect the dots

Well don't make me try to connect your name with the suspended or banned group.

Go to Indian forums and take your frustration out on Pakistan there, this is not the place.