Pakistan's acquisition of the U-214

[Arsalan]

Wasn't my intention, just a statement about the capabilities of both subs and not about IN and PN.

well my friend i never said it was! actually i was worried thatsuch discussions usually end up like that therefor i just pointed that out,, i know you will agre that such things dont help the cause of the forum!

PN (with 3 on order) won't be a prime user of U214, because Greece (3 upg U209+1 new U214), Korea (9 U214), Portugal (2 new + 3 optional) and Turkey (6 new) will also have them.
So it will be a different case if PN would take Marlin, the chance of more benefits as the first user is way higher (look at Rafale deal with UAE as the first user, they will get more techs, possibly a lower price, resell their Mirage 2000-9 and France is searching for a new user...).

well i agrree that there are lot of such subs operated by many but i guess it will be more of a help then a problem. the turkish are getting Sis U214 and will integrated them with lot of stuff produced at home, Pakistancan always take advantage of that!
as for the price issue, it was well studied and i guess they cost a bit lesser then the marlin!
marlin can turn out to be something better then U214 but there is a big big CAN in it! i mean it is still on drawing board anf it will take a hell of time to be integrated with PN, we cannt afford it this time loss!

Btw are these subs additions to the Agosta subs, or replacements

well ofcourse they are in addition. the agosta operated by PN are the most modren class of Agosta 90b. infact the major difference bw the agosta 90 and its successor Scorpion was of AIP that was not originally present with the first one but the ones that PN operate have that syste integrated after it was developed for Scorpions class subs!
all in all, the bottom line is, he Agosta 90Bs are here to stay for good time. they are a match for scorpions by all means and U214 will be an additional punch in the arsenal!

well i never wanted to take the discussion to this issue where we had to discuss Agost in comparison with scorpion but here it is a and hope you will understand the point!
thank for your response,

regards!

 

[sancho]

like OMG... like WTF are you saying?? so are you saying u-214 is nothing but a upgraded type-209? all these countries who are spending 10times more over type-209 and still get the same stuff as upgraded type-209? see thats what we keep on saying about indians.. any thing that pakistan buys which india doesnt is worlds cr@pest thing... typical loser indian mentality.
take a look at Aogusta-70.... you can talk about that as being close to A-90b... type-214 is in a new league!
so wait wait wait.. you are saying a MLU on type209 with a estimate guess cost of 100 (or even less) million dollars we will have a freakin close to type-214 sub??

I really have no idea why you always have to be so offensive to others, specially to indian members. Where in my last post did I say that U214 is nothing but an upgraded U 209? Anything that would downgrade the U214 deal related to PN? In fact didn't I say it was a wrong decision of IN not to take it?
You simply search for reasons, or make things up to be offensive and start a fight! I'm not gonna generalise it like you did, but to me this looks more like a loser mentality!

You just have to google a bit to find the answer of your question:

Class U 214 submarines are based on construction principles known from U 209. But U 214 was improved by incorporating the innovations of U 212A class, produced for the German Navy, principally the unique air-independent fuel-cell propulsion system...
Greece is already operating eight type 209 submarines; three of them are being refitted with air independent propulsion (AIP) systems, under the Neptune II program.

Naval Highlights from Defendory 2006

Ordered by Greece and South Korea, the U-214 class submarine is basically a development of the U-209 class design with a hull further optimized for hydrodynamic efficiency and therefore stealthiness, but with the U-212A class's AIPS (Air-Independent Propulsion System) based on the Siemens PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) fuel cell technology rather than the Stirling system used in Swedish submarines.

U-214 Class Patrol Submarine | Military-Today.com

And here you can see a comparison of the submarines:

Google-Ergebnis für http://www.hellenic-shipyards.gr/images/extras/SUBmarine/sumb4bc_BIG.jpg

 

[pmukherjee]

I really have no idea why you always have to be so offensive to others, specially to indian members. Where in my last post did I say that U214 is nothing but an upgraded U 209?

Of course you are right Sancho. Any fool knows that U214 is upgraded U209. May be some dont......... . U214 is an upgraded U209 with AIP. That does not make the U214 a lesser capable sub. It is one of the best diesel electrics going around. Some people may not like the word 'upgraded' but that is out of ignorance. One cant help if some of these ignorant people are Pakistanis but that is how the armament industry works. Each subsequent design is an improvement on the earlier design based on feedback received, it is evolutionary. But ofcourse you cant explain it to ignorant Pakistanis who think their sub comes from the moon.

 

[mughaljee]

Yaar,
Today is Jumma , please pray for this deal and with other good deals with TOT, & in pray remember MR.Z (u knows why)

 

[Arsalan]

Pakistan acquisition of U@14

Originally Posted by sancho
Can you provide more infos about Marlin offer to PN and what improvements it would offer?

nothing much can be said about that systems as it is pretty much on paper as yet. perhaps an added advantage over the scorpion is better degree of stealth feature. in most aspects it is reported to be pretty similar to the scorpion but as i said not much is known as yet. a draw back in PN going for marlin is the involvement of lockheed martin, a US firm in some of marlins components is also reported!
regards!

 

[SBD-3]

Of course you are right Sancho. Any fool knows that U214 is upgraded U209. May be some dont......... . U214 is an upgraded U209 with AIP. That does not make the U214 a lesser capable sub. It is one of the best diesel electrics going around. Some people may not like the word 'upgraded' but that is out of ignorance. One cant help if some of these ignorant people are Pakistanis but that is how the armament industry works. Each subsequent design is an improvement on the earlier design based on feedback received, it is evolutionary. But ofcourse you cant explain it to ignorant Pakistanis who think their sub comes from the moon.

U-214 is a capable sub.U-212 (worlds most silent sub) is a development over U-214 main deifference being use of a magnetic hull and body so if PN gets its hands on U-214, Man we have a 10 to 15 years tech jump in Sub tech one thing considerable for PN is that it is diversifing its capabilities by acquiring different subs from different countries.Going forward this will be a great help becuase of diversified options and knowledge avaiable

 

[SBD-3]

Type 214

HDW has developed the Type 214 submarine, which is a further improvement on the Type 212.

The Greek Navy has ordered three Type 214 submarines. The first, Papanikolis (S120), was built at the HDW Kiel shipyard and was launched in April 2004. As of April 2008, the Greek government has refused to accept delivery of the vessel and a commissioning date is uncertain. The vessel successfully completed a further series of sea trials in September 2008.

The Hellenic Shipyards is building the second (Pipinos S121, launched November 2006) and third (Matrozos 122) vessels at Skaramanga. Hellenic Shipyards was acquired by HDW (now part of ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems) in May 2002. A fourth vessel, Katsonis (S123) was ordered by Greece in June 2002 and is expected to commission in 2012.

South Korea has also ordered three Type 214, to enter service in 2007, 2008 and 2009. These are being built by Hyundai Heavy Industries. The first, Admiral Sohn Won-il, was launched in June 2006 and commissioned in December 2007. The second, Jung Ji, was launched in June 2007 and is to be delivered in November 2008. The third, Ahn Jung-geun, was launched in June 2008 and will be commissioned in November 2009. The submarines will form the KSS2 Class. An additional three submarines may be ordered.

The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m, due to improvements in the pressure hull materials. Hull length is 65m and displacement 1,700t. Four of the eight torpedo tubes will be capable of firing missiles.

Type 214 submarines for the Hellenic Navy will be armed with the WASS (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subaquei) Black Shark heavyweight torpedo. The Black Shark is a dual-purpose, wire-guided torpedo which is fitted with Astra active / passive acoustic head and a multi-target guidance and control unit incorporating a counter-countermeasures system. It has an electrical propulsion system based on a silver oxide and aluminium battery.

"The Type 214 will have an increased diving depth of over 400m."Performance of the AIP system has been increased with two Siemens PEM fuel cells which produce 120kW per module and will give the submarine an underwater endurance of two weeks.

A hull shape which has been further optimised for hydrodynamic and stealth characteristics and a low-noise propeller combine to decrease the submarine's acoustic signature.

The integrated sensor underwater system ISUS 90, from ATLAS Elektronik integrates all sensors, command and control functions on board the submarine. BAE Systems provides the link 11 tactical data link. The sensor suite of the U214 submarine consists of the sonar systems, an attack periscope and an optronic mast. The submarine's electronic support measures system and global positioning system sensors are also installed on the optronic mast.
U212 / U214 Attack Submarines - Naval Technology

 

[mughaljee]

any fresh news about the deal, on or off.

 

[SBD-3]

any fresh news about the deal, on or off.

lets again pray at next jumaa

 

[sancho]

any fresh news about the deal, on or off.

Still 8 weeks to go for the election in Germany!

 

[SBD-3]

Choosing French Submarine over German? Rational decision or risking Pakistani defence ?
August 4, 2009 by Farzana Shah

A German team is due in few days probably on August 5th according to sources to look into possibility of signing the accord for provision of U-214 submarines to Pakistan Navy.



U – 214 has the multi target capability

However reports appearing in the media suggest that the deal may hit snags due to change of mind in the current Pakistani government over purchase of German submarines.

In 2008 Pakistan Navy under chief of naval staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir made efforts for including German 214 Class submarines in its fleet and owing to Navy’s persistent efforts, the government had approved plans for acquisition of these submarines to be built at Karachi Shipyard under transfer of technology programme.

The details were later worked out between the two countries when a Pakistan Navy delegation visited Germany in April.

However recently quoting Pakistani government sources, the Financial Times Deutschland says President Asif Zardari may overrule his military’s preference for the German subs to take up a “better offer” from France.

But what better submarines France can offer to Pakistan? That is a question to ponder because France has no better submarines to offer Pakistan at the moment, whereas French are indeed not ready to offer us nuclear submarine.


What France has in store?

There are three options 1. Scorpion, 2. Marlin and 3. Barracuda submarines. But again the scorpions are not superior to U 214, neither these will be having any benefit for Pakistan because French company DCN is already going to provide Scorpion to Indian Navy ahead of Pakistan.

U-214 is way better than French design given to India. Marlin is just on drawing board and will take forever to go to prototype stage and then test and evaluation and finally induction into Pakistan Navy meanwhile India will have all its Scorpion in sea. DCN (Direction des Constructions Navales), France will not be able to fulfill Pakistani order ahead of Indians.

Now the only option for Pakistan will be to ask for Barracuda submarine, but it is unlikely that France will sell us nuclear submarine. Barracuda is a nuclear powered submarine and France does not currently allow the sale of nuclear-propelled submarines.

Despite having French Agosta B submarines, the Pakistani Navy opted for purchasing German Torpedoes for fitting to Agosta B due to the superior German technology.

Pakistan Navy needs German submarines because the German U-214 subs are far better than the French Scorpion.

Following is the comparison between French subs and German U 214.



Specifications of U-214

Crew

27 (including five officers)

Weapon Systems:
Torpedoes

Six 533mm tubes, 24 STN Atlas Elektronik DM2A4 torpedoes

Combat Data Syetem

Basic Command and Weapons Control System (BCWCS)

Countermeasures:

ESM

EADS

FL1800U

Decoys

TAU 2000 torpedo countermeasures system

Radar

Kelvin hughes type 1007 I-band navigation radar

Sonar

STN Atlas Elektronik DBQS-40 sonar suite and STN Atlas Elektronik MOA 3070 mine detection sonar

Periscopes

Zeiss Optronic SERO 14 search and SERO 15 attack

Propulsion

Diesel-electric, MTU 16V-396 diesel engine, 3.12MW, HDW / Siemens AIP (Air-Independent Propulsion) system, 300kW

U214 Dimensions:
Length

64m

Height

13m

Surface Displacement

1,700m³

Presure Hull Diameter

6.3m

Buoyancy Reserve 10%

U214 Performance:
Submerged Patrol Speed of Advance

6kt

Range

12,000nm

Mission Endurance

12 weeks

Constantly Submerged

Three weeks without snorkelling

Mission Sprint Speed

15kt to 20kt

Maximum Dive Depth

400m+

Scorpion (Scorpène) Subs (French One) Specifications

Key Data:

Crew

32

Dimensions:
Overall Length

63.5m

Draught

5.4m

Submerged Displacement

1,590t

Surface Displacement

1,450t

Pressure Hull Weldable and High-Tensile Steel

80HLES, more than 700Mpa

Performance:
Maximum Operating Depth

350m

Submerged Speed

Over 20 kt

Range (at 8kt)

6,400nm

Endurance

50 days

Weapon Systems:
Torpedoes / Missiles

Six 21in torpedo tubes for 18 torpedoes / missiles

Comparison

Specs
Scorpion U-214 Marlin
Crew
32 27 ?

Maximum Operating Depth
350 meters More than 400 meters ?

Range
6400nm 12000 nm ?

Endurance
50 Days 84 Days ?


The comparison clearly indicates the superiority of German U-214 submarine.

If the current government goes for inferior quality French submarines then it will indeed give weight to suspicion of many Pakistanis who see bribes as main factor behind any irrational decisions viz viz defence deals.

Already the Pakistani senators have demanded in an incamera briefing from Pakistani Naval chief in the Senate.

Whereas some eyebrows have also been raised over the fact that foreign secretary Salman Bashir in the current government of Zardari is the brother of Naval Chief, Noman Bashir and there are also some reports that PIA chairman is going to be named Pakistani envoy to France. Some political pundits see such an appointment an attempt to muster a deal for French submarines.

On the other hand submarine acquisition project (SMAP) a group composed of Naval officers who have recommended U-214 submarines over other options after extensive study has been disbanded and the officers have been posted out at different stations.

Though earlier the Germans have delayed the deal due to political situation of Pakistan but can kickoff cutting of hull for first submarine immediately after signing the deal.

In such a situation going for something which does not fulfill the requirement of Pakistan Navy would be tantamount to putting the national defence at risk.

There is no reason not to go for German submarines specially when Berlin even granted federal export credit guarantees worth nearly $1.4 billion for the purchase of the same.

- Asian Tribune -

 

[Enigma SIG]

But ofcourse you cant explain it to ignorant Pakistanis who think their sub comes from the moon.

funny; even ignorant indian's think the MKI can actually take on a death star

 

[Arsalan]

funny; even ignorant indian's think the MKI can actually take on a death star

a submarine comming from moon

come on pakistani guys, we dont have anyone sitting up there on moon to send as a sub!!
but yes ofcourse,
the indian Chander Davi may bless them with one!!

wake-up dude!!!!!!!!
regards!

 

[TOPGUN]

Any new updates guys?

 

[SBD-3]

Any new updates guys?

complete silence my friend