Pakistan's acquisition of the U-214

[Arsalan]

hi guys!
i am actaully i bit confused to see tht topic under discussion on this thread. actually it seem to be comming out of excitement and non of us tries to confirm the news and get knowledge of what actually is happening.
with lots of respected members debating the issue i will like to add something and hope that you people can add some good to it!
first of all let us discuss the news that triggred the discussion. a parlimentarian asked for an in-camera briefing by chief of naval staff about the PN sub deal. this is not that the PN have cancleed the deal, it was there for the final approval from Mr Zardari and he rejected it, this action is thought to be in order to pave wasy from french subs but the PN is still not good with cancellation. this is the reason that the chief was asked to give a briefing to parliment about the abilities of both these systems and let us know which is better for Pakistan. now if the PN thinks the U214 to be the better of two, it will surely be cleared in that discussion.
also keeping in view that Zardair have been involved previously in money scandals wiht french deal and the way that this U-boat deal have gone public, Mr.Z is not goingto do anything silly!
now if we want to explore the good side of french deal, it is that we already have experience with them and also a project worth billion dollar can force them to allow us sale of some other items as well, which my include the N-Plants! (hough i guess we are getting a bit too optimistic saying that)
as far as the topic of what the french have to offer in subs, its a bad story!
scoprions in a lost bet with Indians geting it, the marlin is still on drawing board and will take quite some time before we will be able to get them operational! then comes the barcudda, if this is an option, then PN maay go for it specially keeping in view the launching of neclear sub in the indian ocean by India. barcuda is the only thing we can get from french that will be a better option then the U214!
let me say again that with all the deal going public and the media getting well into it, i hope Mr. Zardari is not going to do anything silly this time!!

what do you guys have to say.
do rember that the U214 is NOT CANCELED once and for all and the briefing we have all heared about is about what PN really wants and why is zardari not willing to sign the U214 deal!!

regards!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Here is a good news for PN not that it has been finalized by our great leader.


Germany is also ready to sell pakistan Papanikolis originally built for Greece..

The same supplier sang the praises of the Type-214 as well, and he gave a very good insight into some propaganda being used to malign the Type-214, the convoluted Greek Type-214 deal. He basically said the problems that had been encountered were nothing but the normal teething troubles of a new design which had been bought straight off paper. The Greeks have a history of this, because they were also the launch customer for the Type-209, which they also bought straight off paper, and which also had teething troubles. That didnt stop them from making follow on purchases though, and the current problems will not stop the government in Athens making follow on orders for the Type-214 in future.

Its a good news because PN will be able to operate Papanikolis within months after contract where as if we build all 3 of them at home it will be delivered to Pakistan Navy in 64 months (5+years) once the contract is signed. another pro is our Brother Turkey will get a great advantage if Greece also opts for these same sub because we will be having Greek spec sub..


beware.. very bad English

Translation: German » English

Submarine Deal with Pakistan before the early conclusion?

Negotiations of the Pakistani Navy on the purchase of German submarines are apparently more advanced than previously known. The federal government considers the decision to deal with the piquant nuclear weapons state but out of consideration for the Bundestagswahl back. A delegation of Pakistani Navy visited Germany in April and negotiations on the concrete conditions of supply for the modern submarines of type 214 with fuel cell propulsion. They were, however, the Pakistani government Finanznöte apparent. By Walter Friday, Chief of the HDW shipyard in Kiel, the South Asian debate on the purchase price, based on more than one billion euros is estimated. At the federal KfWBank in Frankfurt gave the visitors from Islamabad on the terms of a German export credit. The Pakistani visitors complained that the KfW at a premium of 2.8 percent to the current Euribor inter-bank interest rate to make high demands, but at the same time asked the denomination of the payment and extending the repayment period from 5 to 20 years. HDW nevertheless hopes to continue to sell the submarines in Kiel is an "ongoing business" speech. If the Pakistanis a new building can not finance, is also an alternative deal as possible: HDW could be used for the Greek navy built submarine type 214 named "Papanikolis" offer. The boat was not delivered to the Greeks, because Athens is not paid. The Federal Security Council wants to be until after the election again with the controversial business deal. A cover of the KfW loan through a Hermes guarantee is already in prospect gestellt.U Boot Deal with Pakistan before the early conclusion?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Innovative german U-boats!



The German submarine community is known for its innovation. One of the latest developments, proposed by hoistable mast builder Gabler and mini-UAV specialist EMT Penzberg, is Volans: a concept that allows a submarine at persicope depth to launch and operate up to three mini-UAVs.


The combined July/August issue of Defense Technology International (DTI) has an article on novel UAV concepts from Germany, including Volans. In the article, EMT development engineer Martin Schwager says that the UAV used by Volans will be a modified version of the Aladin hand-launched system in use by Dutch and German troops in Afghanistan.

Volans entails installing a pressure tank on top of a hoistable mast, with the tank being configured to house an automatically-deployable UAV launching system plus up to three mini-UAVs. The entire submarine would remain submerged at PD (periscope depth, typically 12-25 meters below the surface depending on the type of boat). However, the top of the mast would briefly break the surface to deploy the launching system, bring up a UAV and catapult it into the air.

Sensor imagery from the UAV in flight can be received in real-time by an antenna installed on the boat’s communications mast (in this mode, the UAV has to stay within 30 km. of the boat in order to maintain line of sight), or at a prearranged time when recorded data can be transmitted after the UAV returns from the target area.

One operational scenario for which the concept can be used is to acquire real-time imagery of a coastal target for the benefit of a special forces team on board the submarine, prior to their insertion ashore.

Recovery of the UAV cannot be done by the submarine unless the threat level is sufficiently benign for the boat to be able to surface. “Normally, the UAV would either be destroyed by crashing it into the ground, or would be recovered by friendly forces ashore,” says Christian Viertel, R&D engineer at Gabler.

The Volans launch system and modified Aladin UAV (one wing folded, the other extended for demonstration purposes) seen on display at the recent ILA show in Berlin. Photos: Joris Janssen Lok

Volans is part of a wider Gabler concept known as Triple-M, in which the pressure tank mast is used for a variety of payloads, including a Rheinmetall RMK 30 recoilles medium-caliber gun, an FS-Antennentechnik antenna array for electronic or communications intelligence, or the Volans mini-UAV system.

So far, the two companies have performed in-factory tests with the Triple-M pressure tank and the UAV launch system; and tests outside involving a live launch of an Aladin UAV from a launch ramp representative of the one to be used by Volans.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

A German navy submarine has achieved a major milestone in undersea warfare by successfully test firing a fiber-optically-guided IDAS (Interactive Defense and Attack system for Submarines) missile from a submerged position on May 29.

The IDAS missile breaking the surface, seen from the U33's periscope (top) and from a nearby support ship. Photos: PIZ Marine via ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems

The test was performed by the U33, the third of Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems-built U 212 class of air-independent propulsion submarines, in the western part of the Baltic Sea May 29.


Artist's impression of IDAS launch from a submarine. Image: Diehl

IDAS, developed by a consortium of Diehl Defence [the missile], TKMS (HDW) [submarine integration] and Norwegian company Kongsberg Defence & Aerospace [U 212 command & control system integration], showed a "convincing performance" during all phases of the flight, a statement from Diehl says.

"After updating the missile´s inertial system by the submarine's navigation system, the missile was ejected from the torpedo tube. Under water it spread its wings and rudders and started its engine to break through the water surface a few seconds later, ascending to a pre-planned altitude to move into a controlled flight stage," the statement says.

The IDAS missile is about the same size as the ubiquitous AIM-9L Sidewinder from Raytheon (built under license by Diehl BGT Defence) and Diehl's IRIS-T missile (aft). Seen here on display at ILA 2008 in Berlin. Photo: Joris Janssen Lok

Differing from an operational scenario, the test was ended in a controlled glide flight. During the entire flight, data and images of a video camera were transmitted to the submarine via the fiber-optical wire.

According to Diehl, the test firing proves that IDAS can be employed from a submerged submarine. "All mechanical interfaces proved reliable while data transmission via optical wave guide functioned smoothly," the company says.

Engineers at TKMS-owned Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) slide an IDAS test round into the launch container, which in turn fits inside a standard torpedo tube. Photo: HDW

High-ranking Navy officers from several interested countries witnessed the event as observers on an accompanying vessel.

With the test firing from a submerged submarine, the IDAS consortium, in a joint effort with the German Navy as well as the German defense procurement agency BWB, passed a further milestone in this program – nine months earlier than foreseen in the contract, Diehl says.

Photo: Joris Janssen Lok

The next steps in the IDAS project consist of "drawing up outstanding phase documents and initializing the international development program."

IDAS is designed to allow a submerged submarine to attack an anti-submarine warfare helicopter (which is particularly vulnerable when it is deployed in a hover operating its active dipping sonar), or slow-flying maritime patrol aircraft.

The missile, launched from standard torpedo tubes, is also suited to perform a precision attack against a pinpoint position on a surface ship (such as the bridge or a helicopter on deck) or against a target ashore.

How should we rate this new capability and what will it mean to undersea and anti-submarine warfare in general and to the operation of active dipping sonar helicopters in particular? Let us know what you think in the comments.

 

[TOPGUN]

Wat a shame with this mr.10% and his gov trying to get kick backs fromt he french while we need these deadly german beauties! anyhow i just heard from a family member in PN that German's are just awating on purchase order if PN anf the gov decide to go for it! source is just verbal as per now!

 

[mughaljee]

"Al-Hamdolillah" after hearing this, that, deal is not over

 

[Righteous_Fire]

"Al-Hamdolillah" after hearing this, that, deal is not over

What do you mean?

 

[Arsalan]

What do you mean?

it is clear!
the deal is not canceled, not yet anyways!
it is all about our president rejecting to sign the final papers and now as the PN is adviced for an in caremr briefing he may force to go for the U214 as this is what they actually wanted!
also as i said earlier that as the news have gone public and with all the media involved, Mr.Z may not be taking any chances and the PN may well get along with the U214!
i admit that there have been lots of if,s amd may's in my previous post but one thing is for sure, the U214 deal is not gone once and for all!!
sit tight friends, it may well be comming our way prety soon!

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

"Al-Hamdolillah" after hearing this, that, deal is not over

yes indeed! that is what most of us got wrong at the first go! it is not over by any means and i dont think it can now be dumped down the garbage can now with the news becomming public and media making a scandal out of it!
(well yaar, i thought i gave you people a good news and that was surely worth and tab at the thanks button!! )

anyway i seroiusly doubt the U214 deal to be canceled now as another point in its favour is that the french have nothing much to offer. scorpion is going indias way, marlin is still a drawing! on the other hand the german U214 have some big technical plus points over indian conventional submarine fleet and also the weapons on offer are great eg the IDAS!
only good thing that can come from french will be the barcuda and if this happen, i guess it will be better to go for it as it will add a new dimension to PN submarine fleet being a neucler sub!

regards!

 

[sancho]

the french have nothing much to offer. scorpion is going indias way, marlin is still a drawing! on the other hand the german U214 have some big technical plus points over indian conventional submarine fleet and also the weapons on offer are great eg the IDAS!

The U214 has no BIG technical plus against Scorpene, it has some advantages in longer range, endurance and noise reduction (was disscussed here before). Also remember the older U209 subs of IN, or Greece Navy, could easily be upg on U214 standart including aip, the real new techs are only available in U212.
Of course if you can choose between U214 and Scorpene I would take the U214 too, but the question is what new techs the Marlin subs could offer?
Ok, it is only in drawing stage, but if it comes with new techs and PN could be the first operater with licence production and ToT, wouldn't it be an interesting offer? Are any details of the Marlin offer known?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Also remember the older U209 subs of IN, or Greece Navy, could easily be upg on U214 standart including aip, the real new techs are only available in U212.

how stupid of india of not upgrading their Type-209 to "Type-214" standard while purchasing very expensive french boats.. i mean how much would the upgradtion cost, peanuts..

 

[Arsalan]

The U214 has no BIG technical plus against Scorpene, it has some advantages in longer range, endurance and noise reduction (was disscussed here before). Also remember the older U209 subs of IN, or Greece Navy, could easily be upg on U214 standart including aip, the real new techs are only available in U212.
Of course if you can choose between U214 and Scorpene I would take the U214 too, but the question is what new techs the Marlin subs could offer?
Ok, it is only in drawing stage, but if it comes with new techs and PN could be the first operater with licence production and ToT, wouldn't it be an interesting offer? Are any details of the Marlin offer known?

well let us not turn this thread into another stupid Pak vs Ind thread!
i mean how many times we have seen good fruitfull discussions being ruined by this aimless campaing!
the pros and cons of the U214 and the effect of its presence with PN on the power balance in indian ocean have already been discussed in detail so i simply do not want to start the same old debate again!
however, the point about Marlin is worth a debate. i agree that the marlin as it will be succesor of scorpion, will have something better to offer then the scorpion and PN will have the opportunity to be the its first operator but the problem is that it will take much too long for PNs liking to become operational!
also the point of being the primary user will be valid for U214 as well as only turkey and korea will be having them and it will not be a problem or threat for pakistan, rather the turkish involvement will yield something better from this deal!
i hope you understand the point i have tried to make!

regards!

 

[Arsalan]

how stupid of india of not upgrading their Type-209 to "Type-214" standard while purchasing very expensive french boats.. i mean how much would the upgradtion cost, peanuts..

yes a confusing point indeed!
even if the upgradation couldnt bring them on par to the U214s but still it could have been doing a lot of good to them!
i dont have any idea that why this point was neglected by them,

hello indian members, is there a Zardari among you???

regards!

 

[sancho]

how stupid of india of not upgrading their Type-209 to "Type-214" standard while purchasing very expensive french boats.. i mean how much would the upgradtion cost, peanuts..

I also think it was the wrong decision and mainly for political reasons!
Not sure what the real reason was, but Germany has offered upgrading U 209 and new U214 at a cheaper costs than Scorpene deal. Some sources say IN was worried about the safty of the highly flameable hydrogen fuel cells and that U214 don't offer enough improvements compared to U209. I guess the fuel cell point was just a fake reason, cause if so IN wouldn't think about S1000 SSK now which has the same aip system, but could be closer to U212 (hydrogen fuel cell aip and non-magnetic hull).

well let us not turn this thread into another stupid Pak vs Ind thread!

Wasn't my intention, just a statement about the capabilities of both subs and not about IN and PN.

however, the point about Marlin is worth a debate. i agree that the marlin as it will be succesor of scorpion, will have something better to offer then the scorpion and PN will have the opportunity to be the its first operator but the problem is that it will take much too long for PNs liking to become operational!
also the point of being the primary user will be valid for U214 as well as only turkey and korea will be having them and it will not be a problem or threat for pakistan, rather the turkish involvement will yield something better from this deal!
i hope you understand the point i have tried to make!

regards!

Can you provide more infos about Marlin offer to PN and what improvements it would offer?

PN (with 3 on order) won't be a prime user of U214, because Greece (3 upg U209+1 new U214), Korea (9 U214), Portugal (2 new + 3 optional) and Turkey (6 new) will also have them.
So it will be a different case if PN would take Marlin, the chance of more benefits as the first user is way higher (look at Rafale deal with UAE as the first user, they will get more techs, possibly a lower price, resell their Mirage 2000-9 and France is searching for a new user...).

Btw are these subs additions to the Agosta subs, or replacements?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I also think it was the wrong decision and mainly for political reasons!
Not sure what the real reason was, but Germany has offered upgrading U 209 and new U214 at a cheaper costs than Scorpene deal. Some sources say IN was worried about the safty of the highly flameable hydrogen fuel cells and that U214 don't offer enough improvements compared to U209. I guess the fuel cell point was just a fake reason, cause if so IN wouldn't think about S1000 SSK now which has the same aip system, but could be closer to U212 (hydrogen fuel cell aip and non-magnetic hull).

like OMG... like WTF are you saying?? so are you saying u-214 is nothing but a upgraded type-209? all these countries who are spending 10times more over type-209 and still get the same stuff as upgraded type-209? see thats what we keep on saying about indians.. any thing that pakistan buys which india doesnt is worlds cr@pest thing... typical loser indian mentality.
take a look at Aogusta-70.... you can talk about that as being close to A-90b... type-214 is in a new league!
so wait wait wait.. you are saying a MLU on type209 with a estimate guess cost of 100 (or even less) million dollars we will have a freakin close to type-214 sub??

Can you provide more infos about Marlin offer to PN and what improvements it would offer?

Marlin is a paper sub and pretty much the same stuff as scorpene..

PN (with 3 on order) won't be a prime user of U214, because Greece (3 upg U209+1 new U214), Korea (9 U214), Portugal (2 new + 3 optional) and Turkey (6 new) will also have them.
So it will be a different case if PN would take Marlin, the chance of more benefits as the first user is way higher (look at Rafale deal with UAE as the first user, they will get more techs, possibly a lower price, resell their Mirage 2000-9 and France is searching for a new user...).

Btw are these subs additions to the Agosta subs, or replacements?

buddy you have also included other countries fallow on orders.... PN Navy upgradtion plan is to induct 12-13 subs within a decade... its likely if Type-214 is chosen PN will end up with 3+6 Type-214 and still have 4 other type.