Pakistani pilot Saiful Azam

[Solomon2]

Well in 1967 war, "the six-Day war" it was the Israelis who attacked the muslims on Eid day.

Ahem. The Six-Day War lasted from June 5th through June 10th, 1967. I don't vouch for its accuracy, but I think you can see where that is on the Islamic Calendar here: link

 

[Solomon2]

...he carried out his duties and he gave a surprise to the israeli pilots -

The point of my post from a few pages back is that there is no evidence that Azam successfully engaged in battle with the Israelis at all: the Israeli aircraft shot down over Jordan was credited to ground fire and if you correlate the OP's source with the Israeli account of the timeline Azam arrived at H-3 the day AFTER the Israelis attacked it. (It's possible, of course, that the OP's source had the date wrong.)

.....the israelis already knew about the existence of Pakistani pilots and they often tried using Punjabi language on the radio -- thinking it would confuse the pilots...most Pakistanis do not appreciate the genocide of Palestinians

I think you're the one who's confused - but you like it that way, yes?

the REAL purpose of this thread is to celebrate a respected pilot who devoted his life towards Pakistan (and helping other Muslim countries during their need of the hour).

Since killing Israelis is the first thing mentioned in the article you think it's O.K. to celebrate the Pakistani pilot for this? Remember, the Arabs, all of them, lived under tyrannical governments. They had little choice but to fight the Jews. But Azam chose to fight the Jews himself, knowing full well that the proclaimed goal of the Arab governments was nothing less than total genocide of the Jews. So why should you even begin to consider Azam a hero, rather than debate whether or not the man was a depraved monster?

 

[500]

Well in 1967 war, "the six-Day war" it was the Israelis who attacked the muslims on Eid day.

No, there was not any eid day then.

In addition 1967 war was initiated by the Arabs:

- they massed forces into Sinai (7 divisions!)
- they started blockade of Tiran straits (considered as act of war).
- they ordered to remove UN peacekeepers.

Only after all that Israel attacked.

Well if USA was not going to do anything to help you guys out at that time, it has changed now. Isnt it? You are protected by USA now. Otherwise.............

USA switched to Israel's side only AFTER the six day war in 1967, i.e. AFTER Israel secured itself and showed that it is the strongest army in the region.

 

[Slayer786]

Ahem. The Six-Day War lasted from June 5th through June 10th, 1967. I don't vouch for its accuracy, but I think you can see where that is on the Islamic Calendar here: link

Ahem. My bad. You are right. The arabs really screwed up. Sorry for that. But if USA becomes neutral, than you want to try us Pakistanis. We promise to give you guys a real fight, not like the useless arabs.

 

[Solomon2]

We promise to give you guys a real fight, not like the useless arabs.

Why would you do that? You know the Arabs would cheer in public and snicker about Pakistanis being suckers for their propaganda in private. Do you seek some sort of adulation?

 

[Slayer786]

Why would you do that? You know the Arabs would cheer in public and snicker about Pakistanis being suckers for their propaganda in private. Do you seek some sort of adulation?

Well u do know that muslims and jews are eternal enemies. there can be no peace between us. Many lives have been lost. And more will be lost.

 

[Solomon2]

israel -- we have no diplomatic relations with them; they are in contact i'm sure behind the scenes -- and there's a silent kind of mutual understanding that we wont screw eachother over...

That's enough for Israel, but it isn't enough for Pakistan. To truly fix what's messed up in your country you have to champion Israel publicly to your fellow Pakistanis. The values you assert in doing so can trump extremism and give your society the power to reclaim its soul from suicide bombers, militant mullahs, murderous mobs, and misogynistic misfits who rejoice at shooting little girls or throwing acid at pretty women.

 

[MastanKhan]

It is a common mistake- and a common charge- to confuse the fact that Yagoda and some others in the Soviet hierarchy were Jews with making Jews as a people responsible for the mass murder of Soviet people.

In reality there is no connection, and this is another conspiracy theory. For one, the ultimate Soviet mass murderer was Stalin who personally disliked Jews. Two, the majority of people doing the killing were non-Jews. Three, the prominence of Jews in the communist party was greatly exaggerated; there is a term for this conspiracy theory- Jewish Bolshevism.

Hi,

In the future it can be said the christian amerivan army killed over a million mulsims in afghanistan and over a million muslims in iraq----but there were just afew jews in power in important decision making posts in the govt----the power players---.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Ahem. My bad. You are right. The arabs really screwed up. Sorry for that. But if USA becomes neutral, than you want to try us Pakistanis. We promise to give you guys a real fight, not like the useless arabs.

:sniper

Man you don't have facts straight about Arab-Israeli wars like so many posters.

But that's OK. Mullahs teach this $hit in Pakistani mosques and you lapped it up.


However even the worst issue with your post is when you blabber this $hit piece:


----- you want to try us Pakistanis. We promise to give you guys a real fight, not like the useless arabs.


This is so bizarre and childish that only a dropout from mad-house madrassah would utter so blabber-ingly


What the f are you talking about????

Pakistan and Pakistani army has no plans to attack Israel.

And

Israeli army has never declared an anti-Pakistani army manifesto.

Then how on earth would you pull these empty threats from your behind and try to spread so much stink on PDF.


This is truly the abuse of freedom of speech so nicely allowed on PDF.

Shameful and disgusting.

utterly disgusting.

Well u do know that muslims and jews are eternal enemies..

Another blabbering from mad-house madrassah Mullah $hite.

What's wrong with you man. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

Why so much ignorance couple with this dastardly arrogance. Why?

As a Pakistani nationalist, I am sorry to the likes of you with Pakistani flag. Really sorry.

 

[turbo charged]

Man you don't have facts straight about Arab-Israeli wars like so many posters.

But that's OK. Mullahs teach this $hit in Pakistani mosques and you lapped it up.


However even the worst issue with your post is when you blabber this $hit piece:


----- you want to try us Pakistanis. We promise to give you guys a real fight, not like the useless arabs.


This is so bizarre and childish that only a dropout from mad-house madrassah would utter so blabber-ingly


What the f are you talking about????

Pakistan and Pakistani army has no plans to attack Israel.

And

Israeli army has never declared an anti-Pakistani army manifesto.

Then how on earth would you pull these empty threats from your behind and try to spread so much stink on PDF.


This is truly the abuse of freedom of speech so nicely allowed on PDF.

Shameful and disgusting.

utterly disgusting.



Another blabbering from mad-house madrassah Mullah $hite.

What's wrong with you man. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

Why so much ignorance couple with this dastardly arrogance. Why?

As a Pakistani nationalist, I am sorry to the likes of you with Pakistani flag. Really sorry.

haramkay qadiani murtad tu apni zaban control mai rekh.....

sab ko peta hai qadiani israel kai liay kaam kertay hain.

 

[FaujHistorian]

haramkay qadiani murtad tu apni zaban control mai rekh.....

sab ko peta hai qadiani israel kai liay kaam kertay hain.


http://i42.tinypic.com/8zi5qg.[/QUOTE]


TTP/Alqaida goons are now declaring everyone else Qadiani.

What a shame.


Even though we discriminate against minorities in Pak,

We want equal treatment for us when we go to other countries.

This is the state of hypocrisy among many of us.

Shamefully.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

The point of my post from a few pages back is that there is no evidence that Azam successfully engaged in battle with the Israelis at all: the Israeli aircraft shot down over Jordan was credited to ground fire and if you correlate the OP's source with the Israeli account of the timeline Azam arrived at H-3 the day AFTER the Israelis attacked it. (It's possible, of course, that the OP's source had the date wrong.)

nope; the kills were confirmed....pilots like him and others such as former C.A.S. Nur Khan are recognized as having shot down the aircrafts.....in those days the "Islamic nationalism" was still existing. Today, substantially less.

can you imagine today the Arabs doing another oil embargo? Whole other subject altogether.

I think you're the one who's confused - but you like it that way, yes?

No my friend, I'm not. Go do research.

Since killing Israelis is the first thing mentioned in the article you think it's O.K. to celebrate the Pakistani pilot for this? Remember, the Arabs, all of them, lived under tyrannical governments. They had little choice but to fight the Jews. But Azam chose to fight the Jews himself, knowing full well that the proclaimed goal of the Arab governments was nothing less than total genocide of the Jews.

Well actually - i'll give credit where it's due. Despite the given unwavered support from US which gave it a huge tech. advantage - the much smaller israel did succesfully defend itself against multiple threats. Yes it's situated in a hostile neighbourhood but do you ever ask why the hostility? Keep that question in mind, dont answer it here.

Our pilots (as i said) volunteered to fight as a courtesy. Remember that countries like Jordan supported Pakistan (following cutoff of arms by US) in 1965 war. It only made sense for us to reciprocate, no? You cant be emotional over this topic. This is advice I give to YOU as well as to fellow Pakistanis who bring up Judaism or other completely irrelevant things. View it professionally, not emotionally.

It makes sense to celebrate the professionalism of PAF and its record; not necessarily "celebrate" deaths of soldiers.

By the way - i dont believe any Israeli pilots were KIA during engagement with PAF pilots. I think ALL of them ejected; correct me if i'm wrong.

So why should you even begin to consider Azam a hero, rather than debate whether or not the man was a depraved monster?

Bolshevism; emotional talk.

Dont be emotional

 

[Argus Panoptes]

I think world record is 8 war planes shot down by a single pilot.

Erich Hartmann claimed 352 combat kills for Germany during WW2, and Joseph Christopher McConnell, Jr. was credited with downing 16 Mig-15 jet aircraft during the Korean War.

 

[Solomon2]

nope; the kills were confirmed.

Source?

...pilots like him and others such as former C.A.S. Nur Khan are recognized as having shot down the aircrafts..

A phrase which dances about the question of whether they really did so or not. The Arabs, according to Oren, attributed the Jordan encounter to ground fire. King Hussein, who was a witness to the Israeli attack, was an experienced fighter pilot so how likely is it that he made an error of judgment here?

The attack at H-3 preceded Azam's arrival by one full day, if you compare Oren's timeline with the OP's article.

Well actually - i'll give credit where it's due. Despite the given unwavered support from US which gave it a huge tech. advantage -

Israel's antediluvian Shermans vs. Jordan's latest tanks from the U.S. and Syria's and Egypt's armor from the U.S.S.R. were some sort of "huge tech advantage" from the U.S? (As for Israel's aircraft, they were mostly French.)

Yes it's situated in a hostile neighbourhood but do you ever ask why the hostility? Keep that question in mind, dont answer it here.

I have answered it, and you know it - but you can't bring yourself to repeat it, can you?

Our pilots (as i said) volunteered to fight as a courtesy.

"Kill all the Jews? Sure, count me in!"

 

[Slayer786]

Man you don't have facts straight about Arab-Israeli wars like so many posters.

But that's OK. Mullahs teach this $hit in Pakistani mosques and you lapped it up.


However even the worst issue with your post is when you blabber this $hit piece:


----- you want to try us Pakistanis. We promise to give you guys a real fight, not like the useless arabs.


This is so bizarre and childish that only a dropout from mad-house madrassah would utter so blabber-ingly


What the f are you talking about????

Pakistan and Pakistani army has no plans to attack Israel.

And

Israeli army has never declared an anti-Pakistani army manifesto.

Then how on earth would you pull these empty threats from your behind and try to spread so much stink on PDF.


This is truly the abuse of freedom of speech so nicely allowed on PDF.

Shameful and disgusting.

utterly disgusting.



Another blabbering from mad-house madrassah Mullah $hite.

What's wrong with you man. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

Why so much ignorance couple with this dastardly arrogance. Why?

As a Pakistani nationalist, I am sorry to the likes of you with Pakistani flag. Really sorry.

LOL. Calm down. It just shows how emotional you are and by reading your gibberish it seems you are very naive about World Affairs. I couldnt stop laughing reading that when did Israel ever have anti-Pakistan manifesto. Oh Bpoy! You must be living in another world.
Israel has many times planned to attack Pakistani nuclear sites as it is always afraid of Pakistan nuclear ambitions.
Also one more thing that dont assume anything without any facts. First research it and then write it, otherwise it will make you look really dumb.

The bilateral relations between the state of Pakistan and the state of Israel have been complex since their establishment in 1947 and 1948 respectively, shifting from close ties to hostilities against each other. Politically and historically, both states were established based on their ideological declarations. Israel labelling Pakistan "an antisemitic state" and Pakistan counter-labeling "A Zionist and racist state".

During Israel's War of Independence (1947–1949), Israel's diplomatic mission in Washington received information that Pakistan was trying to provide military assistance to the Arabs, including rumors that a Pakistani battalion would be sent to Palestine to fight alongside them. Pakistan bought 250,000 rifles in Czechoslovakia that apparently were meant for the Arabs. Also, it became known that Pakistan bought three planes in Italy for the Egyptians.[5] The Pakistan Air Force in the 1967 and 1973 Arab–Israeli wars, Pakistani pilots flying Jordanian and Syrian planes shot down Israeli planes.[6] Saiful Azam, a Pakistani pilot shot down at least 4 Israeli jets.[7] In the 1982 battle for Beirut between Israel and the PLO, fifty Pakistani volunteers serving in the PLO were taken prisoner by Israel. After the 1973 war, Pakistan and the PLO signed an agreement for training PLO officers in Pakistani military institutions.[8] After successfully destroying Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981, Israelis planned a similar attack on Pakistan’s nuclear facilities at Kahuta in collusion with India in the 1980s. Using satellite pictures and intelligence information, Israel reportedly built a full-scale mock-up of Kahuta facility in the Negev Desert where pilots of F-16 and F-15 squadrons practised mock attacks. According to ‘The Asian Age’, journalists Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark stated in their book ‘Deception: Pakistan, the US and the Global Weapons Conspiracy’, that Israeli Air Force was to launch an air attack on Kahuta in mid-1980s from Jamnagar airfield in Gujarat (India). The book claims that “in March 1984, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi signed off (on) the Israeli-led operation bringing India, Pakistan and Israel to within a hair’s breadth of a nuclear conflagration”.[9] Another report claims that Israel also planned an air strike directly out of Israel. After midway and midair refueling, Israeli warplanes planned to shoot down a commercial airline’s flight over Indian Ocean that flew into Islamabad early morning, fly in a tight formation to appear as one large aircraft on radar screens preventing detection, use the drowned airliner’s call sign to enter Islamabad’s air space, knock out Kahuta and fly out to Jammu to refuel and exit. According to reliable reports in mid-1980s this mission was actually launched one night. But the Israelis were in for a big surprise. They discovered that Pakistan Air Force had already sounded an alert and had taken to the skies in anticipation of this attack. The mission had to be hurriedly aborted.
Pakistan reminded the Israelis that Pakistan was no Iraq and that PAF was no Iraqi Air Force. Pakistan is reported to have conveyed that an attack on Kahuta would force Pakistan to lay waste to Dimona, Israel’s nuclear reactor in the Negev Desert. India was also warned that Islamabad would attack Trombay if Kahuta facilities were hit. The above quoted book claims that “Prime Minister Indira Gandhi eventually aborted the operation despite protests from military planners in New Delhi and Jerusalem.”[10]
McNair’s paper #41 published by USAF Air University (India Thwarts Israeli Destruction of Pakistan's "Islamic Bomb") also confirmed this plan. It said, “Israeli interest in destroying Pakistan’s Kahuta reactor to scuttle the "Islamic bomb" was blocked by India's refusal to grant landing and refueling rights to Israeli warplanes in 1982.” Clearly India wanted to see Kahuta gone but did not want to face retaliation at the hands of the PAF. Israel, on its part wanted this to be a joint Indo-Israeli strike to avoid being solely held responsibe.

Source: Wikileaks

If there is still any doubt as to the real intentions of Israel, then please see this statement issued by David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister. His words, as printed in the Jewish Chronicle, 9 August 1967, leaves nothing to the imagination:

"Whereas the inhabitants of the Indian peninsula are Hindus whose hearts have been full of hatred towards Muslims, therefore, India is the most important base for us to work there from against Pakistan."It is essential that we exploit this base and strike and crush Pakistanis, enemies of Jews and Zionism".
"The world Zionist movement should not be neglectful of the dangers of Pakistan to it. And Pakistan now should be its first target, for this ideological State is a threat to our existence. And Pakistan, the whole of it, hates the Jews and loves the Arabs."

"This lover of the Arabs is more dangerous to us than the Arabs themselves. For that matter, it is most essential for the world Zionism that it should now take immediate steps against Pakistan."