Pakistani pilot Saiful Azam

[Abu Zolfiqar]

so he was a mercenary ?

he wasn't being paid. . .

so how would that make him (or the other PAF pilots who VOLUNTEERED in '67 and '73) mercenaries?


when i see posts like these, i actually feel dumber

 

[MastanKhan]

It is kind of $tupid on our part to boast about 67 Arab-Israeli war.

Tiny Tiny Israel gave a huge drubbing to mighty Arab armies. So what if there were 10 Pakistani air force pilots in the theater. so what if one them comes home and says I shot down an Israeli plane.

Does that change the picture.

The war was clearly between two groups.

A. Egypt + Syria + Jordan + Iraq + Palestinian militants

And on the other side???


B. one and only one "Israel "

For an unemotional historian of wars here was the outcome.

Side-B beat the cr@p out of 10+ bigger Side-A.

Side-A lost HUGE areas, got their airforces utterly and completely destroyed.

Side-A literally got $hat upon by Israeli defense forces and air force.

And here we have so-called patriotic Pakistanis willingly eating that same $hit that Arabs ate.

Where is our self respect. Where the f it is?

then we wonder why Arabs treat us like salves.

Well they will, if we continue eating their $hit.

Disgusting!

utterly disgusting!

Hi,

Actually---it is not as simple as that---. Israel had more in numbers and better weapons systems. Take Mig 21 for example---its flying time only 30 minutes----Phantom on the other hand--- 4 1/2 hours---. Israel had more funtional and better tanks.

IBut then the israelis are warriors----egyptians are farmers---. Israelis are focused on their goal---arabs are clueless--.

Israelis come to fight----arabs are gutless---spineless---.

Egyptians deceived the syrians and jordan in the 73 war---egyptians lied about their goals---.

Arabs never came to fight to win the wars everytime they fought israel.

Kalu miah----israel was never backed up the americans full time---it was due to the fcuk up of the muslims all over the world and middle east specifically the americans got fed up of the arabs.

I had some older american friends---good olds white people from mid west and northern states---they hated israel and jews with a passion---.

You people are clueless how the arab / muslim world ruined its image in the u s----chopped their own hands and legs off by their shenanigans.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Hi,

Actually---it is not as simple as that---. Israel had more in numbers and better weapons systems. Take Mig 21 for example---its flying time only 30 minutes----Phantom on the other hand--- 4 1/2 hours---. Israel had more funtional and better tanks.

IBut then the israelis are warriors----egyptians are farmers---. Israelis are focused on their goal---arabs are clueless--.

Israelis come to fight----arabs are gutless---spineless---.

Egyptians deceived the syrians and jordan in the 73 war---egyptians lied about their goals---.

Arabs never came to fight to win the wars everytime they fought israel.

Kalu miah----israel was never backed up the americans full time---it was due to the fcuk up of the muslims all over the world and middle east specifically the americans got fed up of the arabs.

I had some older american friends---good olds white people from mid west and northern states---they hated israel and jews with a passion---.

You people are clueless how the arab / muslim world ruined its image in the u s----chopped their own hands and legs off by their shenanigans.

I agree with much of your views here

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I am not disagreeing with you, all i was telling you is that this thinking existed among the average rank and file. All PAF pilots and advisors were volunteers, they wanted to fight the big bad Jew because they were considered the enemies of Islam and sympathy for the Palestinians was at an all time high. PAF unofficially sanctioned this project but only allowed volunteers to fight.

That may be so. The question then arises as to what was their status under the "Geneva Conventions" which govern the status of Combatatants and Non-Combatants in a Conflict. Or were they to be considered to be Mercenaries?

 

[Windjammer]

WJ, I like your posts mostly.

However on this topic, Solomon is right. We must give credit where it is due.

Look if some Pakistani pilot does something on his own. Fine.

But do not put PAF's good name with him, unless he is brave enough to fly with PAF colors, and fights under direct supervision / operational planning of Pakistani commanders.

The world is already filled with too many conspiracy theories. And OP types just add more to that type of theories.

PAFs' victories to be celebrated are the ones against Indian AF especially in 1965. Our pilots flew with pride displaying our flag and under our commanders.

Let's keep this discussion real.


thank you

@FaujHistorian

Wright brothers may have conducted the first flight but all credit goes to Boeing for putting the 747 in air.
Credit indeed should be given where due, the subject pilot received a certificate in 1962 from US Navy's Top Gun for excelling in a gunnery competition while flying in an F-86/Sabre. The aircraft most likely belonged to US, since back in 1962, the PAF had no provisions to fly something like an F-86 all the way to Nevada. The citation clearly reads..."Awarded to ------ of PAF.
Coming back to the topic, the pilot on deputation, may have been flying in a Jordanian or Iraqi aircraft but all credit goes to the PAF for training him and honing his skills to bring about the best in him. A cabbie may be able to drive an F-1 car but that doesn't make him a racing driver. What's more remarkable to this episode is the fact that during his combat with the Israelis, the PAF pilot was flying Jordanian and Iraqi Hunters.....an aircraft which bore the brunt of PAF while in service with the Indian AF.

 

[Windjammer]

You cut-and-pasted from an article without reading what I read, or you would have - or should have - been embarrassed by your actions, as they show you up as a witling.

We all read, talk and argue about the holocaust but i wonder how many actually witnessed it.
Did you miss history at school , since most of us never lived through a certain period, we tend to learn from historians but as i said, by all means share your personal combat experience .....but i guess you can only argue on what you have read or have been lead to believe. !!

 

[Munir]

The US dropped atom bombs... Isn't that beyond any limits? They used chemical weapons like Agent Orange... No limits either. Now they use mass manipulation to dominate world. Anyone cares? Historians are nice.. But like embedded journalists there is nothing objective about it.

I mean... We see bombs ripping hundreds of civilians every day in muslim world... Yet if anything little happens with western world it is huge deal. Suddenly children are killed or nation is attacked. Does Obama care about all those children, women or civilians he kills for war against "terrorism"? I doubt that.

 

[MastanKhan]

We all read, talk and argue about the holocaust but i wonder how many actually witnessed it.
Did you miss history at school , since most of us never lived through a certain period, we tend to learn from historians but as i said, by all means share your personal combat experience .....but i guess you can only argue on what you have read or have been lead to believe. !!

Windjammer,

That is an interesting post----. Jews have made it a point that it is their sufferings that count---and nobody else's make the headlines.

When the christians defeated the muslims in spain---the jews talk about the inquisition and how they suffered---even though they were a smalll minority--the christian and jewish history books have made the sufferings of the spanish muslims disapear----the jews don't even talk about the murder of a million of muslims in spain.

In the u s---when inquisition is mentioned---it is about the sufferings of the jews in spain.

The funny thing is that it was the jews who had turned on the christians in the first and invited the muslims to invade spain----and then they ultimately turned on the muslims after 700 sme years and funded the MILITARY campaign of Ferdinand and Isabella against the muslims.

And for what---to gain trade benefits----as a matter of fact they also played a part as a match maker in the marriage of Isabella to Ferdinand.


Guess what---the catholic church took out the page from the book of Genghis Khan directed towards the jews---IF YOU COULD NOT BE FAITHFUL TO THOSE WHO WERE BENEVOLENT TO YOU FOR 700 YEARS---HOW COULD YOU BE TRUSTED BY US---.

The history books----don't talk about the deception of the jews.

Do you people know that King Faisal told the americans---why do we have to suffer and give real estate to the jews---when it was the germans who committed atrocities on the jews---.

He said, "Why must land not be taken from the Germans and given to the jews to make a country"?

 

[MastanKhan]

The US dropped atom bombs... Isn't that beyond any limits? They used chemical weapons like Agent Orange... No limits either. Now they use mass manipulation to dominate world. Anyone cares? Historians are nice.. But like embedded journalists there is nothing objective about it.

I mean... We see bombs ripping hundreds of civilians every day in muslim world... Yet if anything little happens with western world it is huge deal. Suddenly children are killed or nation is attacked. Does Obama care about all those children, women or civilians he kills for war against "terrorism"? I doubt that.

Hi,

You would have dropped 10 atomic bombs on japan if they did to your pows and if they had conquered your cities---slaughtered your population.

These innocent looking japanese were murderers of the worst kind---. They should be grateful to the americans that they let them live.

The problem with the americans is that they could not make up the SOB STORY of japanese atrocities as the jews did of the germans.

The americans took it like a man and gave it back like one. The jews took abuse from the strong---and then in turn brutalized the weak.

 

[Aslan]

he wasn't being paid. . .

so how would that make him (or the other PAF pilots who VOLUNTEERED in '67 and '73) mercenaries?


when i see posts like these, i actually feel dumber

Well its too hard for them to understand, after all they did arrest some animals for spying did they not.

 

[Glitcher]

That may be so. The question then arises as to what was their status under the "Geneva Conventions" which govern the status of Combatatants and Non-Combatants in a Conflict. Or were they to be considered to be Mercenaries?

there status will be same as of ww2 american pilots who went to fight german under british AF

That may be so. The question then arises as to what was their status under the "Geneva Conventions" which govern the status of Combatatants and Non-Combatants in a Conflict. Or were they to be considered to be Mercenaries?

there status will be same as of ww2 american pilots who went to fight german under british AF

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Do you guys know about the atrocities the jews committed upon the russians---millions of russians were killed by the jews----.

Why do you think the jews are hated so much----inocent russians in millions muhink rdered in concentration camps.

Pakistanis think of the jews as weak and meek----.

My children----the jews have been the enforcers of the mafia in the u s for the longest term---. Do not ever take them for granted.

 

[Slayer786]

It is kind of $tupid on our part to boast about 67 Arab-Israeli war.

Tiny Tiny Israel gave a huge drubbing to mighty Arab armies. So what if there were 10 Pakistani air force pilots in the theater. so what if one them comes home and says I shot down an Israeli plane.

Does that change the picture.

The war was clearly between two groups.

A. Egypt + Syria + Jordan + Iraq + Palestinian militants

And on the other side???


B. one and only one "Israel "

For an unemotional historian of wars here was the outcome.

Side-B beat the cr@p out of 10+ bigger Side-A.

Side-A lost HUGE areas, got their airforces utterly and completely destroyed.

Side-A literally got $hat upon by Israeli defense forces and air force.

And here we have so-called patriotic Pakistanis willingly eating that same $hit that Arabs ate.

Where is our self respect. Where the f it is?

then we wonder why Arabs treat us like salves.

Well they will, if we continue eating their $hit.

Disgusting!

utterly disgusting!

Israel was not alone. It had the backing of USA the SATAN himself. If Israel had been in danger, then USA would have stepped in to help it out. And also, Israel attakced the Arab armies on Eid day when most of the army was off on holidays. It was a cowardly attack, but it taught a lesson which the arabs had forgotten. Everything goes in a WAR. There is no right way to fight.

 

[Solomon2]

We all read, talk and argue about the holocaust -

You're flaming me. My point is, I posted a rebuttal of the "facts" from a source of great quality and you responded by repeating the very thing that was rebutted, without change. Now you're stooping to insult.

Why should other Pakistanis respect you, then? Indeed, why should you respect yourself?

 

[Solomon2]

This is incorrect. You are only speaking of the official version that people saw on the surface.

I'm speaking of the military support. The U.S. gov't did not become the primary arms supplier to Israel until after the 1967 war.

The United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[10][11] The International Court of Justice[12] also says these settlements are illegal,[13][14] and no foreign government supports Israel's settlements.[15] In April 2012, UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon, in response to moves by Israel to legalise Israeli outposts, reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal, and "runs contrary to Israel's obligations under the Road Map and repeated Quartet calls for the parties to refrain from provocations."[16] Similar criticism was advanced by the EU and the US.[17][18] Israel disputes the position of the international community and the legal arguments that were used to declare the settlements illegal.[19]

The U.N. is quite aware that these are "sense of the U.N." resolutions that don't constitute international law and that the legal grounds for such a determination are spurious. These grounds have infuriated some diplomats I talk to, but that's because I'm bringing these matters out into the open. For example, the Int'l Court did NOT "say these settlements are illegal" but was charged by the U.N. to develop a prosecution position for doing so; illegality was the ASSUMPTION of the legal exercise - but politically it is wielded as a weapon, as even educated folks like yourself could be depended upon to be blinded by the fine print. Declarations of the SG are, of course, political utterances and not legal judgments.

Isn't that the same argument we hear about colored minorities in the US from Repubs?

Yeah, what happened in the 1990s was that Clinton and the Republicans reformed the welfare system to remove most of the incentives for evil. Prez Obama may be trying to bring these back by selective non-enforcement but I'm not following these issues so closely.