What's new

Pakistani officials furious over ‘Homeland’

But for a country so constantly involved in the affairs of others, for a developed nation with a very high literacy rate, one of the richest, with the worlds best higher education institutes, there really is no excuse for the widespread ignorance of the outside world.
Most of the money our nation makes does not go to education (only about 2%) and a lot of people drop out of high school. Our government isn't education orientated as much as it should.

If Pakistan had the same amount of Government spending as the US and only spent around 2% for education, I would expect Pakistanis to be just as stupid and ignorant as America is. Especially with government propaganda.
 
It's fine to say that most of the people of the world, don't know anything about the rest. But for a country so constantly involved in the affairs of others, for a developed nation with a very high literacy rate, one of the richest, with the worlds best higher education institutes, there really is no excuse for the widespread ignorance of the outside world. That's for all countries, what makes it worse for Americans is the arrogance that comes with it, the implications it has on everyone, that it is seemingly more common and extreme.

I've been around Western Europe, and the West in general, but Americans it seems to me are by the far the most commonly clueless when it comes to the outside world.

Don't compare Pakistan, the not as wealthy country with low literacy rates with America.

If I'm not wrong, the poor geography skills is something discussed in America, not just a wild accusation by a foreigner like me.
Hey there,

The stereo type is not consistent i my experience, we do have the odd blokes who have no ideaof anything outside US, but then there are some who are experts in everything on everything. The usual low unserstanding of foriegn affairs, conflicts, international history and geography in my experience has been low on more occasion among semi skilled workers and blue collar professionals
I have had very similar observations with my co workers, and thus wanted a better understanding of why this is the case.
Few things that explained this situation of Americans is following observation which are not generalised but from a very limited dataset that I have come across who themselves want a better access to information, news and historical discourse .
1> Poor quality of newspapers and lack of reading culture.
2> 24 hr news channels which heavily rely on American News and trivialization of mundane issues ignoring international news.
3> Lack of reading, although there are great many libraries, in US, reading, debate, puzzles, Elocutions, were in pop culture termed as nerd activities, motivating most kids and teenagers in the last couple of decades to adopt more jock skills than nerd skills.
4>Very heavy entertainment programming.
5>A very tourist rich local destination options. Due to extremely popular destination close by, Most blue collared workers in US do not need to travel beyond North America for vacations. I have met very few americans who have travelled across middle east, Asia, Latin America (there does exist a big exception to this)


But the funny thing is the entire stereotype is under a very heavy change, my prediction is in next two decades US's share in engineers and medical profession will increase exponentially, kids in the US today have a much better curriculum, are extremely engaged and the kids in college have extremely well designed curriculum. Look out in another two decades US will start outgunning EU in quality and quantity of high quality of professionals.
 
Last edited:
I've been around Western Europe, and the West in general, but Americans it seems to me are by the far the most commonly clueless when it comes to the outside world.
I wonder why, oh maybe because they spend more money on education perhaps?
UKExpenditure.svg

Compared to US 134 billion in 2009. But the United States is about 5 times more populated, so 5 X 88 billion = 440 billion, wait that's in pounds so times that by? lets just say $550 billion, that seems a lot more than we have spent so of course they are smarter over there. It's not the amount total that matters it's where the money goes that does and in the US it's not going to education.
 
The claims we reject are that ISI orchestrates terrorist activities. The terrorism is done by out of control elements, not those controlled by ISI.

You can blame Pakistan for losing control of its assets, but not for deliberately causing terrorism.

Nope, regardless of whether you reject that or not, ISI is involved directly in terror activities.

The Indian embassy bombing in Kabul revealed the clearest evidence of ISI involvement, including planning & execution. The U.S. intercepted calls from ISI officials planning the attack with the militants in Kabul in the days leading up to the bombing even though the actual target was then unclear. So damning was the evidence that the Bush administration sent the deputy director of the CIA, Stephen Kappes to Islamabad to confront the ISI. The bomber exploded his car before he arrived. Further evidence came from the attacker's mobile which allowed the U.S. to track down the facilitator who provided the logistics. That chap had been in direct contact with ISI officials in Pakistan, the number he had called was of an high ranking ISI officer in Peshawar who had sufficient seniority to be reporting directly to ISI headquarters. This was not a rogue operation nor was it done by assets who were "out of control" of the ISI. This was sanctioned & monitored by the most senior officials of the ISI.
 
The Indian embassy bombing in Kabul revealed the clearest evidence of ISI involvement, including planning & execution. The U.S. intercepted calls from ISI officials planning the attack with the militants in Kabul in the days leading up to the bombing even though the actual target was then unclear. So damning was the evidence that the Bush administration sent the deputy director of the CIA, Stephen Kappes to Islamabad to confront the ISI. The bomber exploded his car before he arrived. Further evidence came from the attacker's mobile which allowed the U.S. to track down the facilitator who provided the logistics. That chap had been in direct contact with ISI officials in Pakistan, the number he had called was of an high ranking ISI officer in Peshawar who had sufficient seniority to be reporting directly to ISI headquarters. This was not a rogue operation nor was it done by assets who were "out of control" of the ISI. This was sanctioned & monitored by the most senior officials of the ISI.
All of the above is speculation and gossip regurgitated in the media and traced back to the usual unsubstantiated 'anonymous sources'. ISI officials would not be using any sort of cell phones traceable back to the agency (even the TTP is smart enough to use the equivalent of 'burner SIMS') nor would high ranking ISI officials have any interest in direct communication with any such attackers/facilitators.

Carlotta Gall claimed that her allegations of a 'secret OBL cell in the ISI' was corroborated by some 'anonymous sources in the US Administration/military/intelligence', and in a piece that was largely a counter-argument to Gall's allegations, Peter Bergen (on CNN) quoted some other anonymous high ranking US Administration/military/intelligence officials as claiming that they had no evidence of any kind that the ISI was aware of OBL's location.

So unless the claims you regurgitated above can be credible substantiated, they are nothing more than Gall's ludicrous and irresponsible claim of a 'secret OBL cell in the ISI' based on the usual 'anonymous sources'. Gall, much like Christine Fair, has reduced herself to little more than an anti-Pakistan hack by propagating half-baked and poorly sourced and poorly corroborated fantasies and conspiracy theories, perhaps out of anger at her poor treatment when covering a story in Balochistan and eventually being kicked out of Pakistan.
 
Most of the money our nation makes does not go to education (only about 2%) and a lot of people drop out of high school. Our government isn't education orientated as much as it should.

If Pakistan had the same amount of Government spending as the US and only spent around 2% for education, I would expect Pakistanis to be just as stupid and ignorant as America is. Especially with government propaganda.

I'd agree with you. But on Pakistanis, rest assured, we are just as ignorant if not more. But ours is more to do with being a third world nation.

Hey there,

The stereo type is not consistent i my experience, we do have the odd blokes who have no ideaof anything outside US, but then there are some who are experts in everything on everything. The usual low unserstanding of foriegn affairs, conflicts, international history and geography in my experience has been low on more occasion among semi skilled workers and blue collar professionals
I have had very similar observations with my co workers, and thus wanted a better understanding of why this is the case.
Few things that explained this situation of Americans is following observation which are not generalised but from a very limited dataset that I have come across who themselves want a better access to information, news and historical discourse .
1> Poor quality of newspapers and lack of reading culture.
2> 24 hr news channels which heavily rely on American News and trivialization of mundane issues ignoring international news.
3> Lack of reading, although there are great many libraries, in US, reading, debate, puzzles, Elocutions, were in pop culture termed as nerd activities, motivating most kids and teenagers in the last couple of decades to adopt more jock skills than nerd skills.
4>Very heavy entertainment programming.
5>A very tourist rich local destination options. Due to extremely popular destination close buy, Most blue collared workers in US do not need to travel beyond North America for vacations. I have met very few americans who have travelled across middle east, Asia, Latin America (there does exist a big exception to this)


But the funny thing is the entire stereotype is under a very heavy change, my prediction is in next two decades US's share in engineers and medical profession will increase exponentially, kids in the US today have a much better curriculum, are extremely engaged and the kids in college have extremely well designed curriculum. Look out in another two decades US will start outgunning EU in quality and quantity of high quality of professionals.

Very well spotted on the reasoning, and you're right, from what I've seen in schools in NY and California, the children there are really being taught a new generation of teaching methods and styles, it's very impressive. I can see why you might predict them overtaking the traditional EU style.
I wonder why, oh maybe because they spend more money on education perhaps?
UKExpenditure.svg

Compared to US 134 billion in 2009. But the United States is about 5 times more populated, so 5 X 88 billion = 440 billion, wait that's in pounds so times that by? lets just say $550 billion, that seems a lot more than we have spent so of course they are smarter over there. It's not the amount total that matters it's where the money goes that does and in the US it's not going to education.

That's one of the reasons. Another reason is efficiency, or too much of it. Children who go through the system seem to learn what will get them from point A to point B on their curriculum, not all rounded, jack of all trade skills, a lot of the time, teachers will only go over what comes up in the test, sometimes to the detriment of teaching standard and student understanding of that field. And you folks aren't alone on that one, here in Britain, this sort of thing is endemic in our equivalent of public schools. A kid who doesn't need or want a college education has no reason to learn about country x and it's people. Even Doctor or an Engineer doesn't need to know this sort of stuff strait out of school.

Another reason is your media, they are terrible, I can't put it any other way. It's all consumption, entertainment, mass appeal, glamour and what not. I've also noticed differences in entertainment in the UK media and the US. For example the difference between 'The Apprentice', US and UK versions, the US version seems less serious, more dramatic to me, more sound effects and music compared to the UK version, the US version also has a Celebrity Apprentice, which the UK version does not. And this is a trend I observe everywhere, if I view American and UK day time TV or talk shows, the UK versions will have much more informative undertones, even if entertainment is the primary focus. So the media is another reason.

And from Sandy's post, it seems most Americans don't leave the country much. The Geography of the US itself is so vast, the attractions are so plenty and the diversity of the economy is such that most of you need not go anywhere else in the world, where Europeans take it upon themselves to do so, even if that means only within the EU.

Lastly, I think that politics in the US is not at all engaging. Or if it is, it is misguided, or engaging for the wrong reasons. I learnt about the world because I firstly took an interest in Pakistani politics, I branched out to other things, but that's where I started. You folks over there have very weird politics, your political spectrum is very narrow, you have a two party system in which the two parties are almost the same, and personality is discussed as much as policy, again going back to your media, they chose biases and roll with it, come hell or high water. This is not an efficient way of involving people in politics or running a functional democracy, and trust me, political diversity is important, the media plays a key role.
 
Assuming Afghan Taliban to be construed as Terrorist,
[...]
Assuming that remnants of Taliban are terrorists.

You are begging the question.

No one denies that elements of both groups commit terrorist acts, but the issue is whether those acts are directly orchestrated by ISI.

As for operatives claiming this and that, we also have captured TTP operatives admitting to Indian support.
 
All of the above is speculation and gossip regurgitated in the media and traced back to the usual unsubstantiated 'anonymous sources'. ISI officials would not be using any sort of cell phones traceable back to the agency (even the TTP is smart enough to use the equivalent of 'burner SIMS') nor would high ranking ISI officials have any interest in direct communication with any such attackers/facilitators.

Carlotta Gall claimed that her allegations of a 'secret OBL cell in the ISI' was corroborated by some 'anonymous sources in the US Administration/military/intelligence', and in a piece that was largely a counter-argument to Gall's allegations, Peter Bergen (on CNN) quoted some other anonymous high ranking US Administration/military/intelligence officials as claiming that they had no evidence of any kind that the ISI was aware of OBL's location.

So unless the claims you regurgitated above can be credible substantiated, they are nothing more than Gall's ludicrous and irresponsible claim of a 'secret OBL cell in the ISI' based on the usual 'anonymous sources'. Gall, much like Christine Fair, has reduced herself to little more than an anti-Pakistan hack by propagating half-baked and poorly sourced and poorly corroborated fantasies and conspiracy theories, perhaps out of anger at her poor treatment when covering a story in Balochistan and eventually being kicked out of Pakistan.


It is not just Gall's reporting. There is a wealth of other sourcing available. The most relied on is the NYT article that I have referred to here.

Pakistanis Aided Attack in Kabul, U.S. Officials Say
By MARK MAZZETTI and ERIC SCHMITT
Published: August 1, 2008

WASHINGTON — American intelligence agencies have concluded that members of Pakistan’s powerful spy service helped plan the deadly July 7 bombing of India’s embassy in Kabul, Afghanistan, according to United States government officials.

The conclusion was based on intercepted communications between Pakistani intelligence officers and militants who carried out the attack, the officials said, providing the clearest evidence to date that Pakistani intelligence officers are actively undermining American efforts to combat militants in the region.

....
The New York Times reported this week that a top Central Intelligence Agency official traveled to Pakistan this month to confront senior Pakistani officials with information about support provided by members of the ISI to militant groups. It had not been known that American intelligence agencies concluded that elements of Pakistani intelligence provided direct support for the attack in Kabul.

American officials said that the communications were intercepted before the July 7 bombing, and that the C.I.A. emissary, Stephen R. Kappes, the agency’s deputy director, had been ordered to Islamabad, Pakistan’s capital, even before the attack. The intercepts were not detailed enough to warn of any specific attack.

The government officials were guarded in describing the new evidence and would not say specifically what kind of assistance the ISI officers provided to the militants. They said that the ISI officers had not been renegades, indicating that their actions might have been authorized by superiors.

“It confirmed some suspicions that I think were widely held,” one State Department official with knowledge of Afghanistan issues said of the intercepted communications. “It was sort of this ‘aha’ moment. There was a sense that there was finally direct proof.”


The information linking the ISI to the bombing of the Indian Embassy was described in interviews by several American officials with knowledge of the intelligence. Some of the officials expressed anger that elements of Pakistan’s government seemed to be directly aiding violence in Afghanistan that had included attacks on American troops.

Some American officials have begun to suggest that Pakistan is no longer a fully reliable American partner and to advocate some unilateral American action against militants based in the tribal areas.

The ISI has long maintained ties to militant groups in the tribal areas, in part to court allies it can use to contain Afghanistan’s power.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/01/world/asia/01pstan.html?_r=0


September 23, 2011
Is Pakistan America’s Ally?
By Dexter Filkins

In testimony before the Senate Thursday, Admiral Mike Mullen, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that agents of Pakistan’s spy agency—Inter-services Intelligence, or I.S.I.—provided support for last week’s attack on the American Embassy in Kabul. (American embassy but the logic of ISI's support to terrorism remains) That is stunning news. It may turn out to be the event that compels President Obama and his advisors to finally force significant changes in America’s alliance—the word is used lightly here—with Pakistan’s military and civilian leaders. As I suggested in a recent piece on Pakistan, we should not be surprised by the I.S.I.’s blatant venality, or by its willingness to act so aggressively against American interests, despite the billions of dollars Pakistan receives each year in aid.

The United States embassy was attacked on September 13th by a group of insurgents who American officials say came from the Haqqani network, an especially lethal group that is allied with the Taliban. The assault was extraordinarily brazen: the American Embassy is in downtown Kabul, and is adjacent to the headquarters for the American military and its NATO allies. Sixteen people were killed, including eleven civilians—six of them children. (The Embassy itself was not breached.) The Embassy attack was one in a series of spectacular operations, which have included assassinations and suicide bombings, that have contributed to a growing sense of demoralization among the Afghans and their American sponsors.


If the I.S.I. was indeed involved in the planning or direction of the Embassy attack, it would constitute the most dramatic evidence yet that the Pakistani military and security agencies are actively trying to subvert the American-led project in Afghanistan. But it would not be the first such evidence: American and Western officials have been saying for years that the I.S.I. actively supports Taliban and Haqqani insurgents who are killing American troops. In 2008, according to American officials, I.S.I. agents helped facilitate the bombing of the Indian Embassy in Kabul, which killed fifty-four people

Is Pakistan America’s Ally? - The New Yorker


US allegations of ISI links to Haqqani attacks stretch back to July 2008, when the CIA deputy director, Stephen Kappes, flew to Islamabad with intercept evidence that linked the ISI to an attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul.

US bomb warning to Pakistan ignored | World news | The Guardian


,,,,,About the car-laden explosives that went off at the Indian Embassy in Kabul that killed 58 people and injured 141, Mike Waltz, who worked in the US vice president's office while George Bush was still president, said: "Through information and a series of events (not to mention preceding intelligence intercepts), it became pretty clear that the Pakistanis were behind the (Jalaluddin) Haqqani network, which was behind the bombing."

He then damningly concluded: "The question was how high in the Pakistani state this went. And the answer was pretty high."

isi behind 26/11 attack, indian embassy bombing in kabul, says bbc - daily.bhaskar.com


2. Polish intelligence warns of attack on Indian embassy: A July 1, 2008, threat report issued by Polish intelligence in Kabul warns of an attack on the Indian embassy, which was carried out a week later.

The report reads: “INS [insurgents] are planning to divide into two groups: first will attack Indian embassy building, whilst the second group will engage security posts in front of MOI [the Afghan Ministry of the Interior], IOT [in order to] give possibility to escape attackers from the first group…The main goal of this operation is to show TB’s [Taliban's] ability to carry out attack on every object in Kabul.”

Then-U.S. President George Bush and CIA Deputy Director Stephen Kappes confronted the Pakistani government and ISI directorate with evidence that ISI elements aided militants in the attack.

In Leaked Documents, a Spotlight on the ISI - Dispatch - WSJ
 
Last edited:
Watched Zero Dark Thirty...and got to know that Arabic is fluently spoken in the streets of Rawalpindi and also in Abbottabad!

Pretty surprising, guess I have been living in the wrong country.

producers and directors should at least put these basic things right.

Then you haven't watched Octopussy and Indiana Jones and Temple of doom....
 
It is not just Gall's reporting. There is a wealth of other sourcing available. The most relied on is the NYT article that I have referred to here.
If the US actually had credible evidence that the ISI assisted with the attacks on the US Embassy and the truck bombing that resulted in some of the worst casualties inflicted upon coalition troops in a single attack in Afghanistan, the US response would have been far stronger than mere statements to a Congressional panel. Pakistan would have fallen in line with US demands pretty quickly, much as it did after the 9/11 attacks. The one thing you can count on the US not tolerating is direct attacks on US interests. On the conspiracy theory side, perhaps another reason the US did not exert any significant pressure on Pakistan could be the fact that the US was itself supporting terrorist wanted by Pakistan (official US knowledge of the presence of Baloch terrorists in Afghanistan and their assistance for Bugti's escape to Switzerland), of course that also means that the US was engaging in the very same 'support for terrorists' that you are accusing the ISI of, with the US's own diplomatic cables proving Pakistan's accusations.

Mullen's testimony is a better source than some of the other 'anonymously sourced' comments quoted, but those claims were 'walked back' officially by the US Administration soon after. The context behind Mullen's claims was an increasingly fractured US-Pakistan relationship with mutual distrust at its height - more a case of the US playing 'good cop, bad cop' by issuing conflicting statements from different branches of government and trying to use inflammatory and accusatory public propaganda to pressure Pakistan into following its diktat.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/29/world/asia/us-recalibrates-mullens-remarks-about-pakistan.html
 
Perhaps this is set in the future. Trust me, Islamabad-Pindi region is heading down that way. It's like the next Sohrab Goth considering the amount of Afghani mahajar and their qabayli lovers settling in. Whatever Afghanis touch turns to ****. Case study; Afghanistan itself(a.k.a hell on earth, homeland of the gogg and maggog).

They have already made their scummy slums(read "blight") all over the place. Their next step would be deforesting the margalla hills. Then they would encroach all the parks and stuff and alas, you have a new mini Afghanistan/Sohrab Goth for a capital. And Islamabad is also infested by hate Madrassahs.

Oh and these Afghani mahajar are present all over the "northern Punjab". A sohrab goth can be found in Chakwal, Attock, Jhelum, and wherever you go. Despite carrying deep contempt for the native "Punjabis", these mahajars still choose to get up our !@#.
 
The inferences & conclusions are yours to offer, no point in me going there. The articles offered up stand on their own.
 
Back
Top Bottom