Pakistan UAVs News & Discussions

[JamD]

Should the Drone use one of its pylons to carry a self-defense pod or rely on a dedicated EW drone for providing a wall against jamming it. EW and jamming a drone is a major concern in UAS Operations.

Good question. I don't think most drones won't have the engine power to fly a payload and and power an EW pod. Of course, I don't know any numbers on this but CH4 has a piston engine that's supposed to be 1000 HP. How much of that can you divert to an EW pod, I don't know. This is in addition to weight of the pod itself. The WL2 is turboprop so I would assume it has more power (and thus freedom) to carry an EW pod.

Perhaps a dedicated EW version is what you need. I'm not saying this will not be a podded solution, just that this particular airframe wouldn't have the capability to do anything besides EW.

That's just my guess based on a limited understanding of the topic.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Every drone fits inside a shipping container , from Chinese CH4 to American RQ4 all fit inside shipping containers.
ISO 30 or ISO 40ft containers are used for this.
So yeah these 4 shipping containers are indeed for CH4 , and thats actually how u track drone deployments , since shipping containers are large and need a crane to be of loaded so they are placed outside hangars and that tells you that there is drone there. Same case for India and the rest of the world.
P.S a shipping container also appeared outside a hangar at paf base in Quetta recently , WL2 gonna appear soon there ,

4 containers outside Nur Khan today as well. Apart from the Turkish A400M visit as you mentioned.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

4 containers outside Nur Khan today as well. Apart from the Turkish A400M visit as you mentioned.

Hope they have PAC Male UCAV

 

[farooqbhai007]

Good question. I don't think most drones won't have the engine power to fly a payload and and power an EW pod. Of course, I don't know any numbers on this but CH4 has a piston engine that's supposed to be 1000 HP. How much of that can you divert to an EW pod, I don't know. This is in addition to weight of the pod itself. The WL2 is turboprop so I would assume it has more power (and thus freedom) to carry an EW pod.

Perhaps a dedicated EW version is what you need. I'm not saying this will not be a podded solution, just that this particular airframe wouldn't have the capability to do anything besides EW.

That's just my guess based on a limited understanding of the topic.

WL2 doesn't have EW jamming suite but WL2 is markted with comint/sigint pod , which was seen at zuhai 2021 during the flying demo. CH4 is also marketed with same pod.

 

[Akh1112]

WL2 doesn't have EW jamming suite but WL2 is markted with comint/sigint pod , which was seen at zuhai 2021 during the flying demo. CH4 is also marketed with same pod.

To second this, there’s a few other Chinese UAVs marketed with SPJ pods. Though realistically, I don’t think these drones are important enough to employ these on.

 

[JamD]

WL2 doesn't have EW jamming suite but WL2 is markted with comint/sigint pod , which was seen at zuhai 2021 during the flying demo. CH4 is also marketed with same pod.

Which ones exactly? If they are self-protection jamming pods then those are not what @Signalian is talking about.

 

[Akh1112]

Which ones exactly? If they are self-protection jamming pods then those are not what @Signalian is talking about.

You'd be right in that case, power generation capacity would be a big one, another one i wonder about would be bandwidth/latency.
The ability to react in time, quickly, would be limited

 

[Signalian]

Good question. I don't think most drones won't have the engine power to fly a payload and and power an EW pod. Of course, I don't know any numbers on this but CH4 has a piston engine that's supposed to be 1000 HP. How much of that can you divert to an EW pod, I don't know. This is in addition to weight of the pod itself. The WL2 is turboprop so I would assume it has more power (and thus freedom) to carry an EW pod.

Perhaps a dedicated EW version is what you need. I'm not saying this will not be a podded solution, just that this particular airframe wouldn't have the capability to do anything besides EW.

That's just my guess based on a limited understanding of the topic.

The Mücke version of the KZO drone carries a VHF/UHF EA payload and also has a programmable radar jammer onboard that transmits in the 20 MHz to 110 MHz band or the 100 MHz to 500 MHz band to attack voice and data communications. Rheinmetall Defence Electronics has also developed the Fledermaus ES drone version of the KZO, which includes systems to intercept and acquire radar and radio transmissions that provide the position information and signal characteristics of the targets.

China has ASN-206/207 UAV for electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) roles, the UAV is fitted with a JN-1102 EW/ECM suite, which can scan, intercept, analyse, monitor, and jam enemy ground-to-air communications at 20~500MHz. The system consists of a UAV-mounted intercept subsystem, a UAV-mounted jamming subsystem and a ground-based intercept and jamming control subsystem.

And there are more too. Australian, American, British, French etc.

Do you have access to this ?

M. Kunkel, “EA/SIGINT Payloads for UAVs: Assessing the International Market for EW Payloads on UAVs,” Journal of Electronic Defense.

 

[JamD]

The Mücke version of the KZO drone carries a VHF/UHF EA payload and also has a programmable radar jammer onboard that transmits in the 20 MHz to 110 MHz band or the 100 MHz to 500 MHz band to attack voice and data communications. Rheinmetall Defence Electronics has also developed the Fledermaus ES drone version of the KZO, which includes systems to intercept and acquire radar and radio transmissions that provide the position information and signal characteristics of the targets.
View attachment 796435



China has ASN-206/207 UAV for electronic warfare and countermeasures (EW/ECM) roles, the UAV is fitted with a JN-1102 EW/ECM suite, which can scan, intercept, analyse, monitor, and jam enemy ground-to-air communications at 20~500MHz. The system consists of a UAV-mounted intercept subsystem, a UAV-mounted jamming subsystem and a ground-based intercept and jamming control subsystem.

View attachment 796438

And there are more too. Australian, American, British, French etc.

@farooqbhai007 pointed to podded sigint/ECM type solutions for the Chinese drones. So those functions are certainly possible I suppose. I would think the WL2 can spare a hardpoint for one of those pods. CH4, I don't know.

Do you have access to this ?

M. Kunkel, “EA/SIGINT Payloads for UAVs: Assessing the International Market for EW Payloads on UAVs,” Journal of Electronic Defense.

Nope. Post the pdf?

 

[Akh1112]

@farooqbhai007 pointed to podded sigint/ECM type solutions for the Chinese drones. So those functions are certainly possible I suppose. I would think the WL2 can spare a hardpoint for one of those pods. CH4, I don't know.



Nope. Post the pdf?

well, low power stuff is doable, even the ANKA-S carries a huge ECM suite, though dedicated electronic attack is something i question wrt these kinda drones, however, stuff like MALD-J and Brimstone EW i guess could be what you're after, though, the benefit of these big powerful arrays is that you have so much power to overcome countermeasures and stuff.

Just a fun little thing, iirc there was a 707 based EW testbed that was almost as capable as like 100 EA-6's or something absurd, it was ditched for being too powerful from memory

 

[farooqbhai007]

@farooqbhai007 pointed to podded sigint/ECM type solutions for the Chinese drones. So those functions are certainly possible I suppose. I would think the WL2 can spare a hardpoint for one of those pods. CH4, I don't know.



Nope. Post the pdf?

Both CH4 and WL2 carry the SIGINT/COMINT pod on the underbelly hard point so that didn't effect their normal loadout

 

[farooqbhai007]

Indonesian CH4 SIGINT version with a large SIGINT/COMINT pod and more antennas on the drone body during a recent flight.

WL2 marketed at Zuhai with compact SIGINT/COMINT pod ,

and then the same pod during a flight at a demo at zuhai 2021.

 

[Signalian]

@farooqbhai007 pointed to podded sigint/ECM type solutions for the Chinese drones. So those functions are certainly possible I suppose. I would think the WL2 can spare a hardpoint for one of those pods. CH4, I don't know.



Nope. Post the pdf?

SIGINT sensors, could be used to cue other sensors on a UAV, and they offered much longer detection ranges than EO/IR and SAR sensors as per Journal of Electronic Defense, vol. 29, iss. 8, Gainesville: August 2006 edition. SIGINT Ops and electronic support measures can form a basis for EW Ops which can then lead to SEAD/DEAD and jamming. So im thinking ahead of SIGINT towards different types of jamming through UAVs.

Indonesian CH4 SIGINT version with a large SIGINT/COMINT pod and more antennas on the drone body during a recent flight.
View attachment 796480

WL2 marketed at Zuhai with compact SIGINT/COMINT pod ,
View attachment 796481
and then the same pod during a flight at a demo at zuhai 2021. View attachment 796482

Turkish KORAL EW/EMS system was able to jam Chinese drones as well as Pantsir S-1s.

 

[Akh1112]

SIGINT sensors, could be used to cue other sensors on a UAV, and they offered much longer detection ranges than EO/IR and SAR sensors as per Journal of Electronic Defense, vol. 29, iss. 8, Gainesville: August 2006 edition. SIGINT Ops and electronic support measures can form a basis for EW Ops which can then lead to SEAD/DEAD and jamming. So im thinking ahead of SIGINT towards different types of jamming through UAVs.

Turkish KORAL EW/EMS system was able to jam Chinese drones as well as Pantsir S-1s.

With newer satcom systems this gets more complex as they’re able to drop their emissions below the noise floor to make them harder to detect, pick apart and then jam. Alongside that, they are introducing phased array antennas which once again complicates this task

 

[Signalian]

With newer satcom systems this gets more complex as they’re able to drop their emissions below the noise floor to make them harder to detect, pick apart and then jam. Alongside that, they are introducing phased array antennas which once again complicates this task

Russia is working on improving its comm and AD networks after Turkish drones scored hits in Syria.

Smaller (not micro) drones seem to best in combat as they are cheaply produced, can carry a decent payload and are replaceable in war though Turkey found it was not easy to replace shot down drones during war. These smaller drones can penetrate enemy air space easily than bigger drones, and can approach closer to the target emitters compared with aircraft because of their smaller RCS; therefore they need less power for effective jamming and because of their very small IR signatures and RCS there can be ambiguity that the AD missiles will fuse correctly and destroy them. Large drones can carry bigger payload but are costly to replace if shot down.