Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[TOYGAN]

Yes, Turkey can build all of those without Pakistan and, I am saying this seriously. But if you listen to the words of TAI's chief there is a big elephant in the room which can't be ignored and Mr. Kotil talked about it i.e. "I don't have enough engineer in Turkey". This is what Pakistan brings to the table and that's why all this collaboration is done at academia level (With NUST not with PAC).

TAI has already Pakistani engineers which were educated in the UK and BAE Systems helps TAI to find engineers. also Turks living in Germany and Europe are real engineer potential for the TFX program

now TAI has around 5.000 engineers and need more 5.000 engineers. TAI recruits 1,000 engineers per year


Maybe Turkey approaching China via Pakistan. because China has been Pakistan's main strategic benefactor for decades helping Pakistan to build military projects and China already has two 5th gen Fighter Jet projects. China can help Pakistan-Turkey to develop 5th gen Fighter jet and other sophisticated military projects

Now, coming back to the topic at hand, Pakistan's cooperation with TAI on TFX is not going to be a platform level exercise rather cooperation is on sub-system level where TAI will get cheap but very capable minds and PAC will get fresh, advanced trained human resource in house with lots of opportunities to expand existing knowledge base in the country something many countries want but simply can't due to multiple reasons ranging from political to financial.

TAI wants to make the TFX as multi-national project like F-35 program .
TAI considered Pakistan,Malaysia,Azerbaijan.Bangladesh,Kazakhstan,Qatar as potential partners or buyers of the TFX

Turkey has TFX and Pakistan has AZM projects .Turkey sees Pakistan as brother country , strategic ally and potential partner .Turkey has invited Pakistan to participate in the development of the TFX program . Turkey invited Malaysia to join in co-development of the TF-X. Pakistan has Fighter Jet experience and Malaysia has industrial capabilities to produce composite material for the skin of the TFX

TFX development cycle is stretched to 2040 if everything in between then and now stay on schedule. But we know delays are inevitable in such complex projects. So we are talking about 2045-50 timelines for TFX flying in numbers and exported to PAF. Now, PAF's time of induction of 5th Gen fighter is not dependent on the completion of TFX or AZM.

Pakistan has plan to own its own 5th gen Fighter in 2045-50
but Turkey has its own agenda . TFX roll out in 2023 , firts flight in 2025 , delivery to TURAF in 2029 and real 5th gen combat capability in 2035

until 2035 , Turkey plan to develop turbofan engine for the TFX

Pakistan's economic and technological limitations, an indigenous project AZM of this magnitude is unlikely to see the light of day. Hence, the offer of cooperation from Turkey may turn out to be appealing to Pakistan


not only Fighter Jet , Turkey offers Pakistan to develop long range high altitude Air Defense System ... also Warships, Helicopters and UCAVs

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

After Russian attack on Ukraine, I am expecting Turkey's importance to grow in the region and US may quickly sort out their issues with them. This may result in rejoining F35 program for Turkey thus helping TAI TFX to grow further.

NATO is being ridiculed left to right like never before. They will need Turkey for sure if UKraine conflict gets longer but to get Turks active support, something has to be offered on the table as well that is F35.

 

[That Guy]

After Russian attack on Ukraine, I am expecting Turkey's importance to grow in the region and US may quickly sort out their issues with them. This may result in rejoining F35 program for Turkey thus helping TAI TFX to grow further.

NATO is being ridiculed left to right like never before. They will need Turkey for sure if UKraine conflict gets longer but to get Turks active support, something has to be offered on the table as well that is F35.

I have no doubt that the whole s-400/f-35 issue is now being discussed by both sides on an official level.

I wouldn't be surprised if US scientists and engineers end up getting an up close look at the s-400 system.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

I have no doubt that the whole s-400/f-35 issue is now being discussed by both sides on an official level.

I wouldn't be surprised if US scientists and engineers end up getting an up close look at the s-400 system.

Israel used F-35s against Syria in the presence of S-400s.... Do you think that S-400s capability in shooting and tracking down 5th gens is questionable now ?

 

[FuturePAF]

Only Hurdle for PAF are engines

Another reason why Pakistan Acquiring the J-10 was necessary. To test out Chinese engines and determine if they could be a possible source for an engine.

But even if not, I think the Turks make F110 engines under license. So they are going to use that until they have access (domestically or imported) to a more powerful engine

 

[That Guy]

Israel used F-35s against Syria in the presence of S-400s.... Do you think that S-400s capability in shooting and tracking down 5th gens is questionable now ?

It was always unclear how effective the s-400 would be against a 5th gen. What we do know is that Russian in-development s-500 system does have some sort of anti-stealth capability, or at least that's what the Russians claim.

 

[Trango Towers]

After Russian attack on Ukraine, I am expecting Turkey's importance to grow in the region and US may quickly sort out their issues with them. This may result in rejoining F35 program for Turkey thus helping TAI TFX to grow further.

NATO is being ridiculed left to right like never before. They will need Turkey for sure if UKraine conflict gets longer but to get Turks active support, something has to be offered on the table as well that is F35.

The strategic importance of Turkey cannot be ignored especially now due to this war

 

[PakShaheen79]

Pakistan has plan to own its own 5th gen Fighter in 2045-50
but Turkey has its own agenda . TFX roll out in 2023 , firts flight in 2025 , delivery to TURAF in 2029 and real 5th gen combat capability in 2035

until 2035 , Turkey plan to develop turbofan engine for the TFX

Pakistan's economic and technological limitations, an indigenous project AZM of this magnitude is unlikely to see the light of day. Hence, the offer of cooperation from Turkey may turn out to be appealing to Pakistan


not only Fighter Jet , Turkey offers Pakistan to develop long range high altitude Air Defense System ... also Warships, Helicopters and UCAVs

Below is slide about TFX timeline

FOC and Final serial production will take in Phase III ... 2040! 2026 is date for first flight. 14 years between then and Final serial production is v reasonable. All major projects in this category followed the same timeline.

Source:

Türk Hava Kuvvetleri’nin MMU TF-X Sunumu ve Öne Çıkanlar​

https://www.savunmasanayist.com/uluslararasi-anadolu-kartali-2021-egitimi/

Like i explained earlier, PAF is in no hurry. Only compulsion will be if IAF introduces some 5th generation fighter. In that eventuality, Chinese FC-31 option is always there with PAF specifications to counter that.

 

[V. Makarov]

We should send the "Project AZM thread" on PDF to the Turks so that they can prepare themselves for the cringe we are going to post in the coming years.





sarcasm

 

[TOYGAN]

FOC and Final serial production will take in Phase III ... 2040! 2026 is date for first flight. 14 years between then and Final serial production is v reasonable. All major projects in this category followed the same timeline.

TAI's new plan as of 2022

18 march 2023 roll out
18 march 2025 first flight

in 2029 , delivery of the first TFX to TURAF ... ( TFX will have block0 , block1 , etc )

and until 2040 TAI will produce all TFXs for the Turkish Airforce
( to produce 24 TFX per year )

Like i explained earlier, PAF is in no hurry. Only compulsion will be if IAF introduces some 5th generation fighter. In that eventuality, Chinese FC-31 option is always there with PAF specifications to counter that.

Turkey and the USA renewed negotiations regarding the F-35s.
6 F-35s made for Turkey stand in a hangar. We are discussing what will happen to them.

the discussions on both the F-16 and the F-35 continue. Turkey requested 40 new F-16 Block 70 fighter jets and 80 conversion kits to modernize its F-16s to block70 standard



-- Turkey develops MIUS unmanned stealth Fighter Jet to possessing the same advanced characteristics as 5th-generation stealth Fighters ... ( first flight in 2023 )

( MIUS will be able to perform air to air combat , strategic attack missions,
suppression/destruction of air defense systems and missile attack missions )

Endurance : 5 Hours
Service ceiling : 40,000 ft
Cruise speed : supersonic 1,4 mach
Payload : 1.5 Tons

-- AESA radar and next-generation avionics, sensor fusion
-- Internal weapon stations
-- Stealth flight capability
-- The ability to hide from Radars
-- Aggressive maneuverability with delta canard and vertical stabilizers
-- Smart fleet autonomy equipped with artificial intelligence
-- Turbofan engine

another Turkish project for PAF to counter IAF
MIUS is being designed in a stealth form that the missile slots are taken in the fuselage, as in the 5th generation Fighter Jets , equipped with powerful AESA Radar and BVR missiles to change the concept of air warfare

 

[Trango Towers]

TAI's new plan as of 2022

18 march 2023 roll out
18 march 2025 first flight

in 2029 , delivery of the first TFX to TURAF ... ( TFX will have block0 , block1 , etc )

and until 2040 TAI will produce all TFXs for the Turkish Airforce
( to produce 24 TFX per year )






-- TURAF has already 230+ F-16s

-- also Turkey and the USA renewed negotiations regarding the F-35s.
6 F-35s made for Turkey stand in a hangar. We are discussing what will happen to them.

the discussions on both the F-16 and the F-35 continue. Turkey requested 40 new F-16 Block 70 fighter jets and 80 conversion kits to modernize its F-16s to block70 standard

-- Turkey develops MIUS unmanned stealth Fighter Jet to possessing the same advanced characteristics as 5th-generation stealth Fighters .... .( first flight in 2023 )

( MIUS will be able to perform air to air combat , strategic attack missions,
suppression/destruction of air defense systems and missile attack missions )

when MIUS is on the market The world will show interest in Turkey's MIUS unmanned stealth Fighter Jet , not in the F-35 or FC-31

Considering what's happening in Ukraine. Turkey is extremely important and the west will buckle. Ergodic knows this and will get whatever he wants. Both f35 and f16 will come as well as lifting of any sanctions of Turkish companies.
They plot and Allah plots. Muslim must be patient and have faith

 

[CrazyZ]

Considering what's happening in Ukraine. Turkey is extremely important and the west will buckle. Ergodic knows this and will get whatever he wants. Both f35 and f16 will come as well as lifting of any sanctions of Turkish companies.
They plot and Allah plots. Muslim must be patient and have faith

Turkey is now critical to EU/NATO. Not only for its hard power but its ability to cut off the Black sea and its location as a corridor for MENA gas pipelines to EU. Lets see how this impacts TFX.

If Turkey give up onS400 Americans would resend CAATSA sanctions in a heartbeat, IMO. Turkey is more important to the western bloc than India is right now.

 

[Trango Towers]

Turkey is now critical to EU/NATO. Not only for its hard power but its ability to cut off the Black sea and its location as a corridor for MENA gas pipelines to EU. Lets see how this impacts TFX.

It cannot cut off the black sea. There are treaties in place.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

After Russian attack on Ukraine, I am expecting Turkey's importance to grow in the region and US may quickly sort out their issues with them. This may result in rejoining F35 program for Turkey thus helping TAI TFX to grow further.

NATO is being ridiculed left to right like never before. They will need Turkey for sure if UKraine conflict gets longer but to get Turks active support, something has to be offered on the table as well that is F35.

As for the Turkish strategists, it's the worst outcome!!! Anyway, they're 100% confident and ready to go without the USA....

It cannot cut off the black sea. There are treaties in place.

Even the NATO meeting hasn't brought it to the table...

 

[dBSPL]

If Turkey give up onS400 Americans would resend CAATSA sanctions in a heartbeat, IMO. Turkey is more important to the western bloc than India is right now.

Bro, Do you really believe that this issue is only about the S-400? The S-400 is just an excuse to put Turkey under pressure and an effort to legitimize the US justifications against Turkey. The real problem is that we resist not accepting the design that is being tried to be established in our south. Which country carried out the lobbying activities of this bill (included the exclusion of Turkey from the JSF), how it justified its request, it is necessary to evaluate such matters also. Lets say Turkey get rid off the S-400... Any guarantee for other concessions demands will not follow tomorrow? For this reason, Turkey has already taken the risk of not acquiring the F-35.

Meanwhile, the strategic value of the S-400 in terms of Turkish air defense system design will start weaken after 2025-26 (SIPER, and the national early warning system). So why are these needs' prioritizing changed? If the air defense system works are more advanced, couldn't Turkey keep its long-term air defense needs on hold?

Turkey need time 5-8 years for long-range air defense capacity(yes, something was not replaced, a nonexistent system was acquired.) and has a gap filler need of approximately 15 years for new generation main combat jets. When viewed from within this risk range; Turkey has a large fighter jet fleet, but more importantly, a rapidly expanding domestic ammunition/missile arsenal.

But the need for the A/D part was more urgent. Why was it urgent? Because this long-range air defense tender, which we call T-LORAMIDS, has a history of almost 20 years. The USA, for some reason, tried to delay Turkey's access to these systems, directly or indirectly. In the end, we started to develop our own system starting from the lowest layer, and during this time, the S-400 system has been an assurance in the hands of the Turkish state in case of any western bloc relationship totally collapse. It is worth remembering that this purchase came after an attempt at an Atlanticist-backed uprising in the south of Turkey, a pro-NATO military coup attempt in Turkey, and an attempt to push TR into a war in Syria.

Another issue regarding F35 combat jet planning is how functional this aircraft will be for the air force of a country whose alliance relations with the United States are at risk of being completely disrupted. In other words, when we look at the developing geopolitical and recent cyclical developments, Turkey's move away from the F-35 supply is also could be Turkey's choice in a way. Or at the very least, it may indicate that the air force will no longer be entirely dependent on (and control) US logistics. Even if Turkey returns to the F-35 program, previous plans such as 100+16 are now completely unrealistic. I do not want to spread the subject too much. Because it is too complex and has many sub-items.

TLDR, the MMU represents a transformation and the goal of full independence for the Turkish air force. We are not far from there. Therefore, we can pass the current risk range without the F-35. It is better in any case than stepping back from our bigger interests and can be ignored.