Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[HRK]

Turkey is now critical to EU/NATO. Not only for its hard power but its ability to cut off the Black sea and its location as a corridor for MENA gas pipelines to EU. Lets see how this impacts TFX.

If Turkey give up onS400 Americans would resend CAATSA sanctions in a heartbeat, IMO. Turkey is more important to the western bloc than India is right now.

After Ukraine crisis actually Turkey has become more vulnerable [NOTE: I know this opinion appear foolish, but it is not]

 

[python-000]

I personally want to see J-35 in PAF colors...

 

[Materialistic]

Turkey is now critical to EU/NATO. Not only for its hard power but its ability to cut off the Black sea and its location as a corridor for MENA gas pipelines to EU. Lets see how this impacts TFX.

If Turkey give up onS400 Americans would resend CAATSA sanctions in a heartbeat, IMO. Turkey is more important to the western bloc than India is right now.

The likelyhood of Turkey returning to previous terms with US/NATO and F35 acquisition is very slim. It could be some other arrangement with benefits for Turkey.

Russia is not a disposable power which Turkey would discount for a few jets. The same jets and the same US which Turkey let go off for its freedom to make its own choices. Such a move would make Turkey as an untrustworthy partner for other major powers plus countries for decades to come

 

[Materialistic]

Bro, Do you really believe that this issue is only about the S-400? The S-400 is just an excuse to put Turkey under pressure and an effort to legitimize the US justifications against Turkey. The real problem is that we resist not accepting the design that is being tried to be established in our south. Which country carried out the lobbying activities of this bill (included the exclusion of Turkey from the JSF), how it justified its request, it is necessary to evaluate such matters also. Lets say Turkey get rid off the S-400... Any guarantee for other concessions demands will not follow tomorrow? For this reason, Turkey has already taken the risk of not acquiring the F-35.

Meanwhile, the strategic value of the S-400 in terms of Turkish air defense system design will start weaken after 2025-26 (SIPER, and the national early warning system). So why are these needs' prioritizing changed? If the air defense system works are more advanced, couldn't Turkey keep its long-term air defense needs on hold?

Turkey need time 5-8 years for long-range air defense capacity(yes, something was not replaced, a nonexistent system was acquired.) and has a gap filler need of approximately 15 years for new generation main combat jets. When viewed from within this risk range; Turkey has a large fighter jet fleet, but more importantly, a rapidly expanding domestic ammunition/missile arsenal.

But the need for the A/D part was more urgent. Why was it urgent? Because this long-range air defense tender, which we call T-LORAMIDS, has a history of almost 20 years. The USA, for some reason, tried to delay Turkey's access to these systems, directly or indirectly. In the end, we started to develop our own system starting from the lowest layer, and during this time, the S-400 system has been an assurance in the hands of the Turkish state in case of any western bloc relationship totally collapse. It is worth remembering that this purchase came after an attempt at an Atlanticist-backed uprising in the south of Turkey, a pro-NATO military coup attempt in Turkey, and an attempt to push TR into a war in Syria.

Another issue regarding F35 combat jet planning is how functional this aircraft will be for the air force of a country whose alliance relations with the United States are at risk of being completely disrupted. In other words, when we look at the developing geopolitical and recent cyclical developments, Turkey's move away from the F-35 supply is also could be Turkey's choice in a way. Or at the very least, it may indicate that the air force will no longer be entirely dependent on (and control) US logistics. Even if Turkey returns to the F-35 program, previous plans such as 100+16 are now completely unrealistic. I do not want to spread the subject too much. Because it is too complex and has many sub-items.

TLDR, the MMU represents a transformation and the goal of full independence for the Turkish air force. We are not far from there. Therefore, we can pass the current risk range without the F-35. It is better in any case than stepping back from our bigger interests and can be ignored.

I think Turkey got lucky. While losing F35s protecting it's larger interests. Turkey saved itself from other chronic issues of F35 program/costs and the recent limitations discovered on the jet.. But the benefit will only be realized if Turkey can fill the missing capability that F35 could provide. A case of opportunity cost.

 

[UK_PAKISTANI]

After Ukraine crisis actually Turkey has become more vulnerable [NOTE: I know this opinion appear foolish, but it is not]

In any NATO Russia war, Turkey will be crucial. When Turkey shot down a Russian fighter plane,
some important figures from NATO countries openly said they would not go to war for Turkey because of xy and z ( Muslims),
This must have had an impact on the thinking in Ankara.
If they refuse to get involved in any NATO Russia conflict, NATO will be in trouble.
Large parts of Europe will properly be occupied by Russia for some time at least.
NATO could potentiality crumble if there is no massive US intervention quickly.

 

[PakAlp]

What PDF people are saying is Pakistan has 3 choices. The TFX, AZM and J31/J35. I think AZM will be the Chinese j31/j35. Yes China is building a jet for carrier but J20 is not for export so they need a 5th generation which will be available for export like the J10s. They will definitely built a 5th generation planes for export to their allies.

Pakistan will go for 2 5th generation fighter Jets. The TFX for Air superiority and with western inspired Turkish systems and the 2nd will be AZM which will be J31/J35 multirole, a Pakistani spec Chinese 5th generation jet. Pakistan will wait till India inducts a 5th generation jet and then within a few years will induct J31/J35. Between 2030 till 2035 unless India delays the induction till 2040s (which I doubt)

Tfx will replace the western f16s and AzM/J35 will replace the Jf17s/J10s. The TFX with engine issues may be delayed till after 2035 but Pakistan should be able to install a Chinese 5th generation jet engine on the plane. I dont see an issue as Pakistan and China are allies (the engine can be installed in Pakistan). If TFX is inducted around 2045 then this will be late, all European powers will induct 5th generation by 2030s and it would be disaster for Turkey to wait another 15 years before induction, by that time Europeans will be inducting 6th generation planes. 2035 is the latest TFX/J31 should be ready by.

 

[Indos]

What PDF people are saying is Pakistan has 3 choices. The TFX, AZM and J31/J35. I think AZM will be the Chinese j31/j35. Yes China is building a jet for carrier but J20 is not for export so they need a 5th generation which will be available for export like the J10s. They will definitely built a 5th generation planes for export to their allies.

Pakistan will go for 2 5th generation fighter Jets. The TFX for Air superiority and with western inspired Turkish systems and the 2nd will be AZM which will be J31/J35 multirole, a Pakistani spec Chinese 5th generation jet. Pakistan will wait till India inducts a 5th generation jet and then within a few years will induct J31/J35. Between 2030 till 2035 unless India delays the induction till 2040s (which I doubt)

Tfx will replace the western f16s and AzM/J35 will replace the Jf17s/J10s. The TFX with engine issues may be delayed till after 2035 but Pakistan should be able to install a Chinese 5th generation jet engine on the plane. I dont see an issue as Pakistan and China are allies (the engine can be installed in Pakistan). If TFX is inducted around 2045 then this will be late, all European powers will induct 5th generation by 2030s and it would be disaster for Turkey to wait another 15 years before induction, by that time Europeans will be inducting 6th generation planes. 2035 is the latest TFX/J31 should be ready by.

You cannot just install a different engine as simple as like that, redesign ( basic design, detail design) and then followed up with testing which need a lot of money, capable human power, and considerable time.

We can see this on India Tejas Mk2 development despite F 404 and F 414 is basically the same engine but with different thrust. Let alone F 110 GE engine with China engines

 

[Reichmarshal]

Bro, Do you really believe that this issue is only about the S-400? The S-400 is just an excuse to put Turkey under pressure and an effort to legitimize the US justifications against Turkey. The real problem is that we resist not accepting the design that is being tried to be established in our south. Which country carried out the lobbying activities of this bill (included the exclusion of Turkey from the JSF), how it justified its request, it is necessary to evaluate such matters also. Lets say Turkey get rid off the S-400... Any guarantee for other concessions demands will not follow tomorrow? For this reason, Turkey has already taken the risk of not acquiring the F-35.

Meanwhile, the strategic value of the S-400 in terms of Turkish air defense system design will start weaken after 2025-26 (SIPER, and the national early warning system). So why are these needs' prioritizing changed? If the air defense system works are more advanced, couldn't Turkey keep its long-term air defense needs on hold?

Turkey need time 5-8 years for long-range air defense capacity(yes, something was not replaced, a nonexistent system was acquired.) and has a gap filler need of approximately 15 years for new generation main combat jets. When viewed from within this risk range; Turkey has a large fighter jet fleet, but more importantly, a rapidly expanding domestic ammunition/missile arsenal.

But the need for the A/D part was more urgent. Why was it urgent? Because this long-range air defense tender, which we call T-LORAMIDS, has a history of almost 20 years. The USA, for some reason, tried to delay Turkey's access to these systems, directly or indirectly. In the end, we started to develop our own system starting from the lowest layer, and during this time, the S-400 system has been an assurance in the hands of the Turkish state in case of any western bloc relationship totally collapse. It is worth remembering that this purchase came after an attempt at an Atlanticist-backed uprising in the south of Turkey, a pro-NATO military coup attempt in Turkey, and an attempt to push TR into a war in Syria.

Another issue regarding F35 combat jet planning is how functional this aircraft will be for the air force of a country whose alliance relations with the United States are at risk of being completely disrupted. In other words, when we look at the developing geopolitical and recent cyclical developments, Turkey's move away from the F-35 supply is also could be Turkey's choice in a way. Or at the very least, it may indicate that the air force will no longer be entirely dependent on (and control) US logistics. Even if Turkey returns to the F-35 program, previous plans such as 100+16 are now completely unrealistic. I do not want to spread the subject too much. Because it is too complex and has many sub-items.

TLDR, the MMU represents a transformation and the goal of full independence for the Turkish air force. We are not far from there. Therefore, we can pass the current risk range without the F-35. It is better in any case than stepping back from our bigger interests and can be ignored.

time is something we don't have.......ur nato friends will turn on u very soon

 

[PakAlp]

You cannot just install a different engine as simple as like that, redesign ( basic design, detail design) and then followed up with testing which need a lot of money, capable human power, and considerable time.

We can see this on India Tejas Mk2 development despite F 404 and F 414 is basically the same engine but with different thrust. Let alone F 110 GE engine with China engines

Option 1
Turkey/Pak TFX is not yet finalised and they can design tfx based on the Chinese engine.
China already proved they can make 4.5th generation jet engine from J10s induction as they carry chinese engine, so a 5th generation jet engine by 2030s is highly possible. This will fit in with the timeline of tfx induction.

Option 2
If Turkey believes they can make their own engine by 2035 then Pakistan has no issue with this as Pakistan will also be inducting J31/J35 multirole jet. So they can wait until 2040s for the tfx. The big but is will Turkey be able to get 5th generation engine ready by 2035 and on top Turkey needs to start inducting Tfx by 2035 otherwise they will fall behind the regional powers. China had the 4th generation engine ready by 2006 but the quality did not match or exceed those of the Russian engine and it took them 15 years to fix that.

Turk/Pak collaboration is positive, Turkey will have a customer who will purchase atleast 100+ Tfx planes, Azerbaijan will also become a customer. This will benefit Turkish industries and the money will be reinvested back to the defence industry. Pakistan can also request China to aid Turkey in to developing the engine, many components of the plane can be made in Pakistan to bring the cost down.

Other than that how can Pakistan contribute, the design will be Turkish with little Pakistani input, the avionics, missiles will be Turkish, engine Turkish etc.

 

[Indos]

Option 1
Turkey/Pak TFX is not yet finalised and they can design tfx based on the Chinese engine.
China already proved they can make 4.5th generation jet engine from J10s induction as they carry chinese engine, so a 5th generation jet engine by 2030s is highly possible. This will fit in with the timeline of tfx induction.

Option 2
If Turkey believes they can make their own engine by 2035 then Pakistan has no issue with this as Pakistan will also be inducting J31/J35 multirole jet. So they can wait until 2040s for the tfx. The big but is will Turkey be able to get 5th generation engine ready by 2035 and on top Turkey needs to start inducting Tfx by 2035 otherwise they will fall behind the regional powers. China had the 4th generation engine ready by 2006 but the quality did not match or exceed those of the Russian engine and it took them 15 years to fix that.

Turk/Pak collaboration is positive, Turkey will have a customer who will purchase atleast 100+ Tfx planes, Azerbaijan will also become a customer. This will benefit Turkish industries and the money will be reinvested back to the defence industry. Pakistan can also request China to aid Turkey in to developing the engine, many components of the plane can be made in Pakistan to bring the cost down.

Other than that how can Pakistan contribute, the design will be Turkish with little Pakistani input, the avionics, missiles will be Turkish, engine Turkish etc.

TFX current design is based on F 110 GE engine made by General Electric, so the mass production will likely use F 110 GE engine. Their official statement about local engine induction in 2026-2028 prototype should not cloud our rational since making jet engine is not easy as Turkey even until now still use foreign engine for their SOM cruise missiles.

If Pakistan official want to join the program, it means they are ready to use F 110 engine, something that should not be seen as problematic as Pakistan Air Force is still operating their F 16 squadrons with full support in term of spares of components by US companies.

 

[GiantPanda]

The J-10, J-11B, JF-17 and J-20 had flown with two different engines.

In fact, the J-10C that the PAF is getting uses the WS-10B but its initial batches were installed with AL-31s. The same with J-20.

The JF-17 though the PAF uses the RD-93 have flown with WS-13 in China. The FC-31 prototypes initially flew with RD-93 and then changed to WS-13.

So changing engines is certainly not impossible judging by how many times China had done it even within batches of the same sub-types.

Very possible that the TFX can go to a new engine as long as it is in the same class. I believe the TFX was envisioned to use a medium sized engine like the RR EJ200. It won't be able to change to a heavy engine like the WS-10 (or F110 for that matter) but highly possible for another medium one like WS-13 or RD-93.

 

[Indos]

The J-10, J-11B, JF-17 and J-20 had flown with two different engines.

In fact, the J-10C that the PAF is getting uses the WS-10B but its initial batches were installed with AL-31s. The same with J-20.

The JF-17 though the PAF uses the RD-93 have flown with WS-13 in China. The FC-31 prototypes initially flew with RD-93 and then changed to WS-13.

So changing engines is certainly not impossible judging by how many times China had done it even within batches of the same sub-types.

Very possible that the TFX can go to a new engine as long as it is in the same class. I believe the TFX was envisioned to use a medium sized engine like the RR EJ200. It won't be able to change to a heavy engine like the WS-10 (or F110 for that matter) but highly possible for another medium one like WS-13 or RD-93.

That plane are Russian design and some new plane has been using Russian engine since the start. Chinese new engine program is basically following the dimension and lenght of Russian engine.

Same like Turkey, their new engine will try to mimic F 110 engine where their local company (JV with GE) has assembled F 110 engine with some components made in the country.

Different issue if TFX uses Chinese engine which is made based on Russian ones

 

[GiantPanda]

TFX current design is based on F 110 GE engine made by General Electric, so the mass production will likely use F 110 GE engine. Their official statement about local engine induction in 2026-2028 prototype should not cloud our rational since making jet engine is not easy as Turkey even until now still use foreign engine for their SOM cruise missiles.

If Pakistan official want to join the program, it means they are ready to use F 110 engine, something that should not be seen as problematic as Pakistan Air Force is still operating their F 16 squadrons with full support in term of spares of components by US companies.

If the TFX is using the F110 then it should be able to use the WS-10. It is in the same class and would have similar dimensions.

I am surprised that the TFX would go with a heavy engine. It'll end up being the size of a F-15 or J-20.

 

[Indos]

If the TFX is using the F110 then it should be able to use the WS-10. It is in the same class and would have similar dimensions.

I am surprised that the TFX would go with a heavy engine. It'll end up being the size of a F-15 or J-20.

Lets check since it mimics Saturn engine from Russia

AL-31F[edit]​

Data from Gordon,[24] Rosoboronexport,[25] United Engine Corporation[26]

General characteristics​

• Type: Two-shaft afterburning turbofan
• Length: 4,945 mm (194.7 in)
• Diameter:
  • 905 mm (35.6 in) inlet;
  • 1,280 mm (50 in) maximum external
• Dry weight: 1,520 kg (3,350 lb)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

F110-GE-129[edit]​

Data from General Electric,[12][13] American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME),[14] MTU[15]

General characteristics​

• Type: Afterburning turbofan
• Length: 181.9 in (462 cm)
• Diameter: 46.5 in (118 cm)
• Dry weight: 3,920 lb (1,780 kg)

-----------------------------

Still have different that needs redesign,

 

[GiantPanda]

That plane are Russian design and some new plane has been using Russian engine since the start. Chinese new engine program is basically following the dimension and lenght of Russian engine.

Same like Turkey, their new engine will try to mimic F 110 engine where their local company (JV with GE) has assembled F 110 engine with some components made in the country.

Different issue if TFX uses Chinese engine which is made based on Russian ones

The WS-10 is actually based on the CFM56 which came from the F101 which was developed into the F110. So those two are actually more related than the AL-31.

There were some differences with gear box placements because the WS-10 were initially designed for Flankers (J-11.) But the dimensions should be compatible.

The J-10 supposedly required gearbox and other placements very different from the Flankers but Shenyang/Chengdu has little issues it seems adopting the WS-10s to the J-10s.