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Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

Air Uni is unfortunately not the kind of Uni that comes to mind when I think “research and development”

If anything the most qualified Uni to carry out any of this research work is NUST CEME (yes the army one). Most of NUST labs are there and they get relatively more funding (which is still peanuts unfortunately). Their focus on defense projects and their ability to work together with other campuses of NUST would be key.

I wouldn't even factor in any other university other than NUST into the whole equation. That in itself is the crux of the problem. We don't have any private or public university capable of venturing into a bold R&D venture. While EME might have some semblance of infrastructure, military men bring with them a culture, a thought-process and a way of live that just snubs any R&D/innovation out of students and the civilian faculty.

I am really sorry to say this but every fauji-engineer working at PAC, EME, studying at post-grad level in SMME, or present in an administrative capacity in NUST (I have come across) has struck me as rather stupid. Like actually stupid. Engineering was not one of their forte. I've been extremely skeptical about this aviation city crap that airforce wants to start. It is most certainly an extra-ordinary vision but the ground realities are not changed simply by vision.

Also, for some reason, Pakistani institutions believe that Maths is an unnecessary skill set for an engineer. SNS used to supply the Math professors in entire NUST and you know who went to SNS? The ones who failed in getting into any other engineering discipline! Honestly, the only reason why I cant achieve more right now is because my math sucks, even though I am an engineer! and graduated in the top 10 of the class at SMME! I can say the same for every other graduate coming out of Pakistani schools. The fundamentals are weak in Pakistan and there is no realisation of this. Maths was just a personal example that is holding me back.
 
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since you bring in PT-FX

so does it mean both Turkey and Pakistan can go to their own choice of engine? how is it possible?

AZM is Pakistan. An engine relatively same in class and performance, can be done with little changes & we call it NGFA.

I wanted to add further in general prospective that, those buildings & facilities are not built to be abandoned & left vacant. PAC has experience and knowledge by working on a 4th Gen Joint Venture and a lot being learnt. Given the TAI expertise it is their first A/C even though they jumped on 5th Gen directly, PAC is already experienced in 4th Gen class and that is the foundation to progress. In my humble opinion, there is a natural course to progress onto certain level of advancement. Even though, Turkiye has been producing jets under license built condition but that point of experience to be gained from a 4th Gen A/C as an important part to progress was missing. Therefore, as said before that brothers will eat fruit together; PAC joins with all the expertise and TAI is in with the resources as well.

Secondly, nobody exactly knows the economic input by Pakistan or even the facts about economic condition at PAC. AVRiD and those infrastructures aren't built in vain and to be lost like that. However, this is our moment of like back in 80s going for Nuclear. Nothing made public for brownie points but the process will continue given the existing expertise & capacity. Pakistan has many constraints given the resources including Money but that doesn't mean to never start on anything. The time line & targeted goals pretty much explains that PAF NGF is not coming tomorrow or even before 30s. A lot of time to spent, a lot of chance & opportunities to progress with economy and a lot of experience to be gained.

Given PAC history with China & honestly speaking, if one look at development of JF-17 Thunder and Pakistan input for J-10C and even J-20 or that input which ends up with top notch Chinese Fighter Jets; here one might be looking at same trajectory. PAC needs a fighter for PAF and has the experience with 4th Gen whereby TAI has resources and can progress, will be getting help in areas needed and will support in areas that PAC requires. Even though if it is not a direct TF-X purchase; Pakistan will still gain a lot of experience and can use TAI facilities in future as well.

PAF NGF is not dead neither abandoned. We might see different sources & friends as well getting involved. May be this particular subject is not about direct involvement in TF-X but as far as Pakistan is involved in program; it will be bringing a lot to home. In the meantime, Pakistan economic conditions will be stabilizing to afford NGF program under AZM. In the meantime, Pakistan will be progressing and will be able to hire expertise. Indeed, nothing comes free.

We shall not undermine & downplay Pakistan experience in this area. I agree that people don't have anything on paper officially released to make them believe but, Pakistan is doing a lot. Neither those facilities under construction nor that program under national supervision are abandoned. Nothing can be said clearly at the moment but, Pakistan is collaborating with Turkiye and so will call in China as well for NGF. Doors are not closed. Turkiye might not involve China but PAF NGF can be done with both parties. We might start with a single engine design before building a heavy twin engine 5th Gen Fighter. That design can be brought to home or can be done in partnering since a lot can be adjusted in off-set cooperation.

people jumped the gun on the merger

Nobody from PDF jumped as such except for those self claimed Twitter Accounts believing in that I know it all. Those kind of accounts are real embarrassment that makes a certain media house to issue a statement to counter.
 
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I have to say the guy interviewing has probably the worst interviewing skills I have ever seen. Instead of asking follow up questions and gaining clarity from his guests, he was too busy laughing and acting more like a Turkey fanboy than a real journalist.

Total wast of time because the interview created more confusions and questions instead of clarity and new insights.

I wonder where he went for journalism school. He should ask for a refund.
 
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Some of you are jumping the gun but in reverse due to that SavunmaSanayiST tweet which said the MERGER of the MMU & AZM NGAF is not true.

However, the TAI CEO said they're collaborating on a "Turkish-Pakistani" fighter. Furthermore, if you watch the video the Pakistani AVM/VP NSTP CONFIRMED it right after so it wasn't just the CEO exaggerating & being "cute".

Merger & collaboration are mutually exclusive. I agree people jumped the gun on the merger part but the collaboration is definitely there.

@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @RadarGudumluMuhimmat @kursed
I did not say that they do not cooperate, I said that the planes (TFX-AZM) are not the same projects. The sources I gave are not a troll who said that CHINA - Pakistan and Turkey will develop UAVs until 1 month ago, but an SSB employee and one of the official accredited media organizations of the SSB. Also, in the continuation of the video, the Pakistani official confirms that there are already 2 different planes, what is this discussion about?
 
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Turkey and Pakistan are allies who are experiencing similar threats and restrictions. going together will bring lots of opportunities to both. Turkey can avail of Chinese equipment easily as and when needed especially fighter jets equipped with easa radars and other goodies. Pakistan is combining experience and expertise got j10 and f 16 technologies with Turkey to make a new hybrid system. Turkey has worked on radar absorption materials and missile weaponery.
They will try to do what is not available to both neither from the west and the east to them. looking for real value to their defense in testing times and poor performing economies.
 
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The design will be the same, the local turbojet engine will mimic F 110 engine

do you have an idea how hard it is to "mimic" F-110 engine.

But anyway, Turkiye has never had a problem with producing licensed fighter jets or producing engines under license. Turkiye has invested in the capacity to produce its own design-test and engine in this period of approximately 20 years.
India has also never had a problem with license producing fighter jet and engine. How are they doing on the self development front?
I don't think people have quite an appreciation of how hard it is to mass produce something at F-110-GE-129 level.

The target engine should be a WS-15 class.
And why would China supply WS-15 to a project headed by Turkey?

China is not offering us any
That's because China does not need Pakistan assistance in developing a 5th generation aircraft. When the time comes, FC-31 will be available for Pakistan. But keep in mind, FC-31/J-35 is still in prototype stage right now. There is not a lot of point in getting a 5th generation aircraft until it's in service somewhere with a reliable engine. Until then, it's all talk.

Look at Russia's experience with su-57, all talk. A country with decades of experiencing building modern fighter jet struggles to produce a few production worthy su-57. And now will probably have to delay the program further to provide funding for an Ukraine invasion.

I do expect Tempest and FCA to be developed, but they look closer to 5th generation aircraft right now rather than the 6th generation aircraft that they claim to be. And it will take a long time before they get put into production.
 
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do you have an idea how hard it is to "mimic" F-110 engine.

Mimic in here means similar in diameter, weight, lenght, same like you Chinese do the same with Russian engine.

Is it hard to understand ?? I have already stated about the design will be the same between TFX with F 110 and TFX with local engine.
 
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That's because China does not need Pakistan assistance in developing a 5th generation aircraft. When the time comes, FC-31 will be available for Pakistan. But keep in mind, FC-31/J-35 is still in prototype stage right now. There is not a lot of point in getting a 5th generation aircraft until it's in service somewhere with a reliable engine. Until then, it's all talk.
Why not the J-20? I mean USA is selling F-35s to it's allies
 
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Mimic in here means similar in diameter, weight, lenght, same like you Chinese do the same with Russian engine.

Is it hard to understand ?? I have already stated about the design will be the same between TFX with F 110 and TFX with local engine.
won't happen for at least 20 yrs. Its all easy to talk but Turkey has never made a single fighter jet. Making a jet engine isn't the same as making a small drone.
 
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won't happen for at least 20 yrs. Its all easy to talk but Turkey has never made a single fighter jet. Making a jet engine isn't the same as making a small drone.

TEI is JV between Turkish company and American company (General Electric). There they have that "GE" component that make them maybe will have good chance to produce a good engine for fighter. I am not as optimistic as Turkish member who follow official time line at 2026-2028, but some day between 2035-2045 IMO is more realistic.

1645623137235.png
 
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won't happen for at least 20 yrs. Its all easy to talk but Turkey has never made a single fighter jet. Making a jet engine isn't the same as making a small drone.
They will need many more years of experiences on a cluster of wind tunnels with each built to serve a specific test purpose, proven mathematical models extracted from reliable wind tunnel test data, strong R&D capability of advanced metal/composite materials and, of course, a capable engine without the fear being sanction by the west. I have intentionally excluded those electronic stuff from consideration to make it look easier. Still all those included items are top secrets for all major world powers.

Turkey alone is less experienced than India as India has partly proved itself by developing and flying Tejas, even though that design mostly came from the Frenches.

Can Turkey use the Frenches? No. France and Turkey are sort of hostile to each other with regards to the Greeks. Turkey is neither a good friend to any other world powers which are good at developing aircrafts. So they have to do it all on their own. Good luck to them for that!
 
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do you have an idea how hard it is to "mimic" F-110 engine.


India has also never had a problem with license producing fighter jet and engine. How are they doing on the self development front?
I don't think people have quite an appreciation of how hard it is to mass produce something at F-110-GE-129 level.


And why would China supply WS-15 to a project headed by Turkey?


That's because China does not need Pakistan assistance in developing a 5th generation aircraft. When the time comes, FC-31 will be available for Pakistan. But keep in mind, FC-31/J-35 is still in prototype stage right now. There is not a lot of point in getting a 5th generation aircraft until it's in service somewhere with a reliable engine. Until then, it's all talk.

Look at Russia's experience with su-57, all talk. A country with decades of experiencing building modern fighter jet struggles to produce a few production worthy su-57. And now will probably have to delay the program further to provide funding for an Ukraine invasion.

I do expect Tempest and FCA to be developed, but they look closer to 5th generation aircraft right now rather than the 6th generation aircraft that they claim to be. And it will take a long time before they get put into production.
Everything in life is hard that's worth having. Hard is not impossible. China got out if trouble by copying stuff.
 
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Endians will shit their pants when they see this
View attachment 817793

Azad Kashmir superpower by 2030 :D
Don't want to offend you but India is way far ahead in the fifth generation fighter race simply beacuse India has access to private industries within our own country. Midhani started supplying titanium slabs for airframe construction of AMCA in 2021 and currently CDR is ongoing for the jet.


I am also skeptical on whether turkey will be able to develop its own jet engine. They have not developed even a single jet engine, not even for trainer aircrafts.
 
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Don't want to offend you but India is way far ahead in the fifth generation fighter race simply beacuse India has access to private industries within our own country. Midhani started supplying titanium slabs for airframe construction of AMCA in 2021 and currently CDR is ongoing for the jet.


I am also skeptical on whether turkey will be able to develop its own jet engine. They have not developed even a single jet engine, not even for trainer aircrafts.
40 years + for tejas and rejected by iaf. Now you question Turkey
 
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