Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[Indos]

Bad taste from T129 saga......Pakistan should never use a USA engine in its version of TFX. USA is simple not a reliable partner for Pakistan or Turkey. For PAF, better options will be Chinese or Russian engines since they will compatible with JF-17. Either upgraded versions of RD93 or Chinese equivalent. Best would be a local MENA engine.

What makes you think BAE System co-operation would not be pulled out by US interreference at any time? Remember Grumen pulling out of JF17 program?

Turkey won't be getting F110s. Just like its not getting F35s. That's how west/US behaves. You are liberal/non-islamic country? You get what you want. But if you have your own belief system, specially Islamic system. You are picked on. Perhaps you won't get this. Turkey needs co-operation otherwise it would have serious defence issues. Depending on west's assessment of Turkish motives, Turkey can see tribulations in every and anything it tries to do.

If engine is the issue then PAK Kamra should negotiate with Chinese, Chinese J31/21 is also plan to be sold to international market and with local manufacturing contribution.

Compare TFX with China offer, then make wise and clever decision, now as Turkey has been approaching PAK, then it can be used as leverage to have good deal with China.

What I see as more positive with Turkey is that TAI is already quite global company with many engineers coming from BAE System and many I believe comes from other Western region. They use English, while Chinese use Mandarin. It is easier to collaborate with Turkish than Chinese based on the environment and also the same culture ( Islam ).

No way US will provide Turkey nor Pakistan F110 engines under the current geopolitical scenario. It would risk irking key EU members, India, and Many middle eastern states including the UAE/KSA.

Pakistan would most likely design its version of the TFX around Chinese engines and subsystems (AESA radar).

Dont be so negative, ask first

Yup it is risky, but I am still hopeful eventually Turkish engine will happen someday inshaAllah. TEI is practically JV between Turkish company and General Electric from USA

 

[ziaulislam]

I'm not worried about any of the infrastructure. If the PAF rolls AZM into TFX, then either AvRID/PAC would use those facilities to support TFX, or TAI will buy those sites as part of an offset agreement (to carry out Pakistan's side of the work). None of that capacity is blocker, IMHO. If there's anything useful, it'll roll into TFX or some other key program.

From interview its pretty obvious that PAF is fully invested in the TFX. Its was calles a TFX-PAKISTAN fighter by turkishand pakistani side with a model

Seems pakistan simply decides that the fighter develped by turks fits its requirement
I think this will be better for us as compared to chinese JV given china doesnt need us but turkey does need us for finances, scalibility and possibly acess to some of the chinese technology/help

Turkey and europe are pretty integrated ans turkey is still the man power of NATO. Europe will provide some technologies to turkey as it has always done

I think members are missing one crucial point. Turkey perhaps lost a lot more than what Pakistan did. Turkey lost billions, prestige, chance to break into combat helicopter market among many other critical issues.

After F35 saga that are well aware that they will never achieve anything unless their reliance on American technology is removed. They will still get tremendous amount of help from the European companies and I am confident they will be able to develop replacements for American hardware.

I think turkey will have an engine..they are actively talking to ukraine and several other countries their chopper is almost ready

Turkey pakistan should do JV on everything IMO and invite other like minded countries like azerbhijan, qatar for starters

 

[untitled]

I often get confused between the logos of the French Air Force and TAI/TUSAS

 

[KaiserX]

I think members are missing one crucial point. Turkey perhaps lost a lot more than what Pakistan did. Turkey lost billions, prestige, chance to break into combat helicopter market among many other critical issues.

After F35 saga that are well aware that they will never achieve anything unless their reliance on American technology is removed. They will still get tremendous amount of help from the European companies and I am confident they will be able to develop replacements for American hardware.

The Director of TAI said it very clearly on Pakistan TV... Something along the lines of (translation)-

Turkey values a partnership with Pakistan in the TFX project because we share certain values and enemies. BAE has already pulled out of the project. Some subcontracting work was done and completed already.

Both sides gain but the Turks in my opinion gain far more. They went to British were turned down. Then went to Russia and even Ukraine but did not get a response. Pakistan was there last viable option.

When it comes to funding there is also the Qatar angle. With Pakistans inclusion this opens up funding from UAE/KSA as well. This makes TFX look more like an "Islamic" Fighter. If a major partner such as UAE/KSA is bought on board then I definately see the number of fighters produced increase significantly. This would

1) Decrease cost due to economies of scale (more fighters produced)
2) Make it far more profitable for US/GE to supply the F110 engines. Due to the UAE/KSA participation this could make it easier for the US congress to approve geopolitically.

Again I am not saying this is likely but the Gulf is sunni and is also facing Iran. The biggest geopolitical threat to Pakistan, Turkey, and Gulf today is Iran. Why do I say that for Pakistan? Simply put India has become far to occupied with China. Iran has stepped up and will continue to step up support to anti-state proxy groups. Things will get bad to worse not just vis via Pakistan but all neighbors.

The Gulf is flush with cash and will have to replace hundreds of 4th generation fighters over the next decades.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Seems like a proper project with good 10-12 year development life cycle
However if there is no "Engine" , it is not ideal situation T-129 mistakes should not be repeated

T-129 was great deal but third party soured the deal , yes with Local Turkish engine may be there is hope but same should not be done with any future plans for NGF

Engine /Jet needs to be manufactured inhouse for Project

License production of Jet should be negotiated first in case the engine will be from Trusted partner who will deliver

• Chinese Engine
• Russian Engine
• Turkish-Pakistani , indigenous effort

Record of failed delivery (US obviously)

• F-16's in 90's
• No reply on request for AWACs
• Failed release of coalition support funding
• Failed delivery of Super Cobras
• Failed delivery of F16 under Applicable discount
• Failed delivery of approval for T-129 Engines
• Gave us a Tug Boat OHP with no weapons

French

• Lack of Parts for Mirages back in 00's

 

[iLION12345_1]

I admire your optimism. Unfortunately, I had the unique pleasure of studying at SMME. It was Pakistan's toughest Mech Eng to get into, barring GIKI but for GIKi there is a huge financial tag that most students cant afford, so SMME it was for me. The state of mech eng there and the general engineering scene at NUST and its associated sister colleges was quite poor and from the stories I hear, is only worsening. Internal, petty politics, right from the Rector level to the Principle to the HoD of each department has ruined whatever was left of the school. Personally, the last nail in the coffin was the departure of Dr. Ghafoor as the Principle after his disagreement over power sharing with the then rector. SMME has seen massive decline in quality. I can say this because I work directly with SMME and its students. More to the point, the post-grads show very very little promise.

SEECs faired much better though, it had a vibrant CS department that was flourishing but that's pretty much it. The research however undertaken there too was quite limited in nature. Every good researcher from my batch left Pakistan for the US or EU and has absolutely no interest in going back. Without a massive revolution in the way our universities are run, the aviation city won't produce a lot of results.

Air Uni is unfortunately not the kind of Uni that comes to mind when I think “research and development”

If anything the most qualified Uni to carry out any of this research work is NUST CEME (yes the army one). Most of NUST labs are there and they get relatively more funding (which is still peanuts unfortunately). Their focus on defense projects and their ability to work together with other campuses of NUST would be key.

 

[Flight of falcon]

The Director of TAI said it very clearly on Pakistan TV... Something along the lines of (translation)-

Turkey values a partnership with Pakistan in the TFX project because we share certain values and enemies. BAE has already pulled out of the project. Some subcontracting work was done and completed already.

Both sides gain but the Turks in my opinion gain far more. They went to British were turned down. Then went to Russia and even Ukraine but did not get a response. Pakistan was there last viable option.

When it comes to funding there is also the Qatar angle. With Pakistans inclusion this opens up funding from UAE/KSA as well. This makes TFX look more like an "Islamic" Fighter. If a major partner such as UAE/KSA is bought on board then I definately see the number of fighters produced increase significantly. This would

1) Decrease cost due to economies of scale (more fighters produced)
2) Make it far more profitable for US/GE to supply the F110 engines. Due to the UAE/KSA participation this could make it easier for the US congress to approve geopolitically.

Again I am not saying this is likely but the Gulf is sunni and is also facing Iran. The biggest geopolitical threat to Pakistan, Turkey, and Gulf today is Iran. Why do I say that for Pakistan? Simply put India has become far to occupied with China. Iran has stepped up and will continue to step up support to anti-state proxy groups. Things will get bad to worse not just vis via Pakistan but all neighbors.

The Gulf is flush with cash and will have to replace hundreds of 4th generation fighters over the next decades.

Please leave Saudis out of this. They are investing billions in new Golf league …. Which no one wants to play.

 

[星海军事]

Do you think Turkey can build a indigenous jet on its own? And it would be at par with the rest? Nope... it has taken China 20 years + to be where it is. Turkey can start with making some systems and sub systems, not the whole aircraft.

Do you think Turkey can develop an engine? Nope...

Do you think USA would let Turkey have F110s? Nope... not with Erdogan as the head of state.

TFX had all chances of failure if no one had partnered.

Turkish economy is also suffering. Its credit rating is going down. Turkey is basically experiencing a full scale economic and socio political melt down attempt by USA. Like they have been doing for years with Pakistan.

It is Pakistan in fact which can help Turkey obtain Chinese Engines for TFX. And can get China to assist with where Turkey gets stuck. Pakistan can also invest in the project and ease off the R&D budget. It can also take bulk of mundane and lower skilled manufacturing tasks. Plus with Chinese engines TFX would get customers. With American engines (even if America agrees to sell them) TFX would have not have any customers.

Your analysis is completely wrong and opposite. I believe without China as a collaborator, Turkish TFX has all chances of failure or chronic delays. Or becoming something like Tejas, good on paper, shit in real! Pakistan is the key to such collaboration.

Agree with most of the part but I suppose Turkey won't allow China or Russia to involve in the program and China don't have a suitable engine on shelf for such a heavy fighter itself as well.

Speaking of Tejas, I suppose it is an inappropriate comparison since India has a maturer aviation industry and less impeded trade than Turkey. The obstacles along the way of TFX are only likely to be even more.

 

[dBSPL]

Officially, TFX is an 11-year old project. If you include some other MMU-related processes and works, you can go much further back. During this time, there was a process in which hundreds of pages could be written. But anyway, Turkiye has never had a problem with producing licensed fighter jets or producing engines under license. Turkiye has invested in the capacity to produce its own design-test and engine in this period of approximately 20 years. Financial requirements were secured by government decrees. The workforce is structured.

Now the project has materializing. It will roll out of the hangar in its 12th year. It will fly in its 15th year. In its 20th year, integration activities with the main engine will begin. In its 25th year, it will reach the highest operational level with block 4.

So far the schedule has progressed very successfully. Could there be delays from now on? Of course its possible. But this process is irreversible anymore.

 

[Battlion25]

Officially, TFX is an 11-year old project. If you include some other MMU-related processes and works, you can go much further back. During this time, there was a process in which hundreds of pages could be written. But anyway, Turkiye has never had a problem with producing licensed fighter jets or producing engines under license. Turkiye has invested in the capacity to produce its own design-test and engine in this period of approximately 20 years. Financial requirements were secured by government decrees. The workforce is structured.

Now the project has materializing. It will roll out of the hangar in its 12th year. It will fly in its 15th year. In its 20th year, integration activities with the main engine will begin. In its 25th year, it will reach the highest operational level with block 4.

So far the schedule has progressed very successfully. Could there be delays from now on? Of course its possible. But this process is irreversible anymore.

11-years?

 

[Indos]

11-years?

Relatively the same year with the start of KF21/IFX first phase development in 2011.

 

[CrazyZ]

If engine is the issue then PAK Kamra should negotiate with Chinese, Chinese J31/21 is also plan to be sold to international market and with local manufacturing contribution.

Compare TFX with China offer, then make wise and clever decision, now as Turkey has been approaching PAK, then it can be used as leverage to have good deal with China.

What I see as more positive with Turkey is that TAI is already quite global company with many engineers coming from BAE System and many I believe comes from other Western region. They use English, while Chinese use Mandarin. It is easier to collaborate with Turkish than Chinese based on the environment and also the same culture ( Islam ).



Dont be so negative, ask first

Yup it is risky, but I am still hopeful eventually Turkish engine will happen someday inshaAllah. TEI is practically JV between Turkish company and General Electric from USA

Pakistan wants to support MENA cooperation and military industrial development. Joining TFX accomplishes both as well as strengthen its own internal arms industries. Pakistan China ties will remain strong for the foreseeable future....so Chinese AC will always be available for purchase.

World is now clearly multi-polar....and a MENA regional bloc could be player in its own right. USA is only focused on alliance with narrow set of countries: Isreal, UK, and the Quad. Zionist and Indian interests in USA will insure that any MENA bloc....especially one that includes Turkey and Pakistan will be treated adversely. America is simply not a reliable partner for any MENA country. Pakistan, Turkey, UAE, KSA......all let down with alliance with USA.

 

[dBSPL]

11-years?

With the Defense Industry Executive Committee decisions on 15 December 2010; It has been decided to start contract negotiations with TAI for the conceptual design, as a project to develop the need for jet trainers and fighters of the Air Force Command after the 2030s, with national resources.

The conceptual design phase of TF-X was initiated by TAI as of 2011, and the conceptual design studies were completed on September 29, 2013.

If you're asking the Prelimanary design phase(Phase1 Stage1), T0 started in 2018. The project is about 1 year ahead of the targeted schedule.

 

[Big_bud]

Agree with most of the part but I suppose Turkey won't allow China or Russia to involve in the program and China don't have a suitable engine on shelf for such a heavy fighter itself as well.

Speaking of Tejas, I suppose it is an inappropriate comparison since India has a maturer aviation industry and less impeded trade than Turkey. The obstacles along the way of TFX are only likely to be even more.

WS 10 is in the same class as GE110 engine.

 

[IceCold]

Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 engines until national ones are developed by TRMotor.[47][48] There are ongoing negotiations with Rolls-Royce on development of an engine for the TF-X.[49]

The above is a major area of concern for Pakistan. We do not want to end up like the T129 deal. Any western component should be a no-go area for us.