Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[Irfan Baloch]

Sadly you are a very negative person who thinks every aspects of PAC is out in the media. The design development and production aspects are all there.

Sadly every pakistani thinks that even a frying pan made anywhere other than Pakistan is the best and has such advanced tech that we could never make it.

Thank God reality is different from peoples perception

not just negative but also very disappointed and angry with the attitude of some officials I saw personally during my visit to a setup in Pindi.

 

[tphuang]

Mimic in here means similar in diameter, weight, lenght, same like you Chinese do the same with Russian engine.

Is it hard to understand ?? I have already stated about the design will be the same between TFX with F 110 and TFX with local engine.

Everything in life is hard that's worth having. Hard is not impossible. China got out if trouble by copying stuff

How much resource do you think China pumped into WS-10 development? How many years do you think it took them to get to a point where they can reliably mass produce WS-10? You really want to compare China's industrial capability to Turkey? Good luck to Turkey trying to get as much funding for engine development as China did. Even with that much investment, China is a 3rd tier engine producer.

You look at Russia. AL-31 entered service in 1985 with su-27. We are in 2022 and they are still no where near finishing development on IZD-30.

Why not the J-20? I mean USA is selling F-35s to it's allies

I don't think J-20 should be off limits to Pakistan. But if Pakistan wants to get J-20 in x number of years time, they need to get rid of all the F-16s and American inspectors and everything else that might have a chance of passing classified J-20 data to Western countries.

But if Pakistan wants an aircraft that they can locally produce, I think FC-31 would be the only one that China gives permission to.

 

[TOYGAN]

We are not talking about 2022
We are talking about the TFX with indigenous turbofan Engine in 2035


Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world

in 2018 Turkey has started developing indigenous turbofan Engine to power the TFX in 2035.( we will see the first prototype of indigenous turbofan Engine in 2026 )


HURJET
HURJET is under production which is simiilar capability to JAS Gripen and HAL Tejas Fighter Jets

TFX
Turkey has started producing the TFX for roll out on 18 march 2023. and first flight on 18 march 2025

-- TAI's advanced carbon composites fuselage facility which was commissioned to produce fuselages for F-35 program

-- ASELSAN GaN based AESA Radar

-- ASELSAN avionics and equipment
Radar warning receiver (RWR)
Missile warning system (MWS)
Laser warning system (LWS)
Digital radio frequency memory (DRFM)-based jamming system
Advanced Navigation Features (ICNI)
Integrated Electro-Optical Systems (IEOS)
Infrared Search and Track (IRST),
Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS)


-- TUBITAK-SAGE / ROKETSAN air to air Missiles
BOZDOGAN WVR infrared homing
GOKDOGAN BVR active radar homing
GOKHAN ramjet engined BVR active radar homing

-- TRMOTOR turbofan Engine ( Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 Engines )

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Just a general comment.

Yes, the TR Motor engine will be Turkey's first fighter-grade turbofan engine, but I wouldn't say Turkey's totally inexperienced. They have been a key part of the GE F110's supply chain for several decades. As some members noted, Turkey has already been manufacturing crystal blades, for example. So, the country already accumulated some decades' worth of development experience across the engine stack. It isn't going into this with zero.

tbh I don't think Turkey has a technology or engineering challenge. It seems that Turkey already has the groundwork to excel. Rather, Turkey's main problem will be on the economic and fiscal fronts. China is a full-out economic superpower, so it could sustain the cost of engine development. Turkey doesn't have this flexibility, which is why it's seeking partners and consortiums to help with economies of scale and overhead sharing.

 

[TOYGAN]

Turkey needs more 10-13 years


People do not know about Turkey's real potential
TEI produced 300+ GE F110 Engines under license and production of 100+ various parts at TEI

as of 2022 , Turkey is one of a few countries in the world that has single cristal blade and blisk-spool manufacturing technologies for aviation engines

and Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world



official video about TEI. you can learn about Turkish engine technologies

 

[Trango Towers]

not just negative but also very disappointed and angry with the attitude of some officials I saw personally during my visit to a setup in Pindi.

Sadly I agree with some of your sentiments.

Turkey needs more 10-13 years


People do not know about Turkey's real potential
TEI produced 300+ GE F110 Engines under license and production of 100+ various parts at TEI

as of 2022 , Turkey is one of a few countries in the world that has single cristal blade and blisk-spool manufacturing tecchnologies for aviation engines

and Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world



official video about TEI. you can learn about Turkish engine technologies

Most people here only appreciate white man achievements

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Most people here only appreciate white man achievements

Turkey needs more 10-13 years


People do not know about Turkey's real potential
TEI produced 300+ GE F110 Engines under license and production of 100+ various parts at TEI

as of 2022 , Turkey is one of a few countries in the world that has single cristal blade and blisk-spool manufacturing technologies for aviation engines

and Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world



official video about TEI. you can learn about Turkish engine technologies

Generally, we Pakistanis don't do our research before giving an opinion, nor do we think in terms of nuances.

 

[Trango Towers]

Generally, we Pakistanis don't do our research before giving an opinion, nor do we think in terms of nuances.

There just seems to be repetition of no money no money no money

 

[JamD]

Unless Pakistan and Turkey can loop in Saudi Arabia or UAE to join the program, the engine component is doomed to fail. A program that includes either Saudi Arabia or the UAE will entice Rolls Royce to reconsider joining.

If that’s not an option, TFX should be designed with a Russian or Chinese engine in mind. I am very skeptical that Turkey will have a mature engine that can power a 5th generation fighter for at least a decade.

Project AZM was always a pipe dream. I never had high hopes in this mermaid project. It was Pakistan’s version of the LCA, but unlike India, Pakistan neither had the funds nor the time.

Qatar. They've been interested in the JF-17 Blk3 for some reason - I think it is to hedge their bets and not for any technology reasons. Also, Turkey and Qatar are pretty close. If you're looking for a gulf state to join the program, it'd be Qatar. Of course this is all wild speculation.

Some of you are jumping the gun but in reverse due to that SavunmaSanayiST tweet which said the MERGER of the MMU & AZM NGAF is not true.

However, the TAI CEO said they're collaborating on a "Turkish-Pakistani" fighter. Furthermore, if you watch the video the Pakistani AVM/VP NSTP CONFIRMED it right after so it wasn't just the CEO exaggerating & being "cute".

Merger & collaboration are mutually exclusive. I agree people jumped the gun on the merger part but the collaboration is definitely there.

@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @RadarGudumluMuhimmat @kursed

I did not say that they do not cooperate, I said that the planes (TFX-AZM) are not the same projects. The sources I gave are not a troll who said that CHINA - Pakistan and Turkey will develop UAVs until 1 month ago, but an SSB employee and one of the official accredited media organizations of the SSB. Also, in the continuation of the video, the Pakistani official confirms that there are already 2 different planes, what is this discussion about?

I will have to agree with @RadarGudumluMuhimmat 100% here. Dr. Riaz (Pakistani AVM) obviously wasn't going to say "no we're not working together" after Kotil called it Turkey-Pakistan fighter. And he very clearly mentions Azm FGFA as a separate thing. As I've been saying (and has been confimed) Dr. Kotil was simply playing to the gallery. He is a very good salesman and very capable of generating hype - which he obviously has succeeded in doing.

I've been saying for more than a year that Pakistan and Turkey are collaborating on a small level on the TFX and a possible joining of the program but nobody paid attention. I will advise you to see my first post on this thread where I have collected all of my previous posts if you want an accurate account of what's really going on (assuming that you are willing to believe what I have to say). I will repeat for everybody's convenience:
There is a SMALL technical Pakistani team in Ankara trying to analyze TFX to see if Pakistan will join the program. Key point: These people are only studying, not giving any input to the program. So IF a joining of this program is to happen, these are VERY EARLY DAYS, which in my opinion is something we've done too late but that's fine.

As soon as this interview came out and these stupid stupid "OSINT" accounts started rehashing the interview as inside news on twitter, everybody starts believeing the most ridiculous version of the facts as gospel. There is something seriously wrong with this twitter infested world. But that's another discussion.

@The Eagle I think you may have been premature in locking the Azm thread and making this the primary thread. I don't think we've had any official confirmation of TFX being the Turkey-Pakistan fighter. I really think Temil Kotil was playing to the gallery - this is the view widely shared by Turkish members as well. I am not saying there is no collaboration, but it is premature to say that TFX has become Turkey-Pakistan fighter.

I wouldn't even factor in any other university other than NUST into the whole equation. That in itself is the crux of the problem. We don't have any private or public university capable of venturing into a bold R&D venture. While EME might have some semblance of infrastructure, military men bring with them a culture, a thought-process and a way of live that just snubs any R&D/innovation out of students and the civilian faculty.

I am really sorry to say this but every fauji-engineer working at PAC, EME, studying at post-grad level in SMME, or present in an administrative capacity in NUST (I have come across) has struck me as rather stupid. Like actually stupid. Engineering was not one of their forte. I've been extremely skeptical about this aviation city crap that airforce wants to start. It is most certainly an extra-ordinary vision but the ground realities are not changed simply by vision.

Also, for some reason, Pakistani institutions believe that Maths is an unnecessary skill set for an engineer. SNS used to supply the Math professors in entire NUST and you know who went to SNS? The ones who failed in getting into any other engineering discipline! Honestly, the only reason why I cant achieve more right now is because my math sucks, even though I am an engineer! and graduated in the top 10 of the class at SMME! I can say the same for every other graduate coming out of Pakistani schools. The fundamentals are weak in Pakistan and there is no realisation of this. Maths was just a personal example that is holding me back.

Being a soldier is the antithesis of being a researcher. I've said this multiple times. People often mistake this as me being "anti-fauji" but its about the mindset required of these roles.

Math: I agree. I graduated top of my class and when I came out of Pakistan I saw how poor my math skills were compared to people from India, Iran, and China. I had to work really hard to catch up and even now I have several holes.



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) we've been discussing the modalities of possible collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey for years on the Azm thread but one TV interview later the forum has woken up to that discussion and rehashing all of that discussion now lol. I suggest everyone who didn't read the Azm thread before the TV show to go read that thread and be amazed at how what you're about to say here was already discussed to death on that thread lol. Apologies for sounding like a bitter babu.

 

[shayyman]

It will be a 5+ gen fighter, so expect some technologies to exceed 5th gen. That should be the ambition anyway because you are looking at 2035 time frame, a time by which USA /China will be flying their 6th gen fighters in limited numbers already (Tejas will still be in development though).

Turkey will lead the project it seems, Pakistan will provide assistance to speed up the development and reduce costs, wherever it can. And frankly, even with both these countries combined, don't forget BAE is design consultant, and west will source some key technologies to Turkey.

I think one of the purposes behind looping in Pakistan is to loop in China and get assistance in crucial areas because they will still find themselves in need of it (not everyone is an Indian genius who can develop a 5th gen jet with 6th gen tech completely on its own just within 3,4 years).

Lastly Pakistan must make sure that its own aviation base is not effected by not being in driving seat. Technology transfer of next gen tech must flow in and along side studies should go on with ambition to become completely independent in fighter jet D&D by 2035/40.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Qatar. They've been interested in the JF-17 Blk3 for some reason - I think it is to hedge their bets and not for any technology reasons. Also, Turkey and Qatar are pretty close. If you're looking for a gulf state to join the program, it'd be Qatar. Of course this is all wild speculation.





I will have to agree with @RadarGudumluMuhimmat 100% here. Dr. Riaz (Pakistani AVM) obviously wasn't going to say "no we're not working together" after Kotil called it Turkey-Pakistan fighter. And he very clearly mentions Azm FGFA as a separate thing. As I've been saying (and has been confimed) Dr. Kotil was simply playing to the gallery. He is a very good salesman and very capable of generating hype - which he obviously has succeeded in doing.

I've been saying for more than a year that Pakistan and Turkey are collaborating on a small level on the TFX and a possible joining of the program but nobody paid attention. I will advise you to see my first post on this thread where I have collected all of my previous posts if you want an accurate account of what's really going on (assuming that you are willing to believe what I have to say). I will repeat for everybody's convenience:
There is a SMALL technical Pakistani team in Ankara trying to analyze TFX to see if Pakistan will join the program. Key point: These people are only studying, not giving any input to the program. So IF a joining of this program is to happen, these are VERY EARLY DAYS, which in my opinion is something we've done too late but that's fine.

As soon as this interview came out and these stupid stupid "OSINT" accounts started rehashing the interview as inside news on twitter, everybody starts believeing the most ridiculous version of the facts as gospel. There is something seriously wrong with this twitter infested world. But that's another discussion.

@The Eagle I think you may have been premature in locking the Azm thread and making this the primary thread. I don't think we've had any official confirmation of TFX being the Turkey-Pakistan fighter. I really think Temil Kotil was playing to the gallery - this is the view widely shared by Turkish members as well. I am not saying there is no collaboration, but it is premature to say that TFX has become Turkey-Pakistan fighter.



Being a soldier is the antithesis of being a researcher. I've said this multiple times. People often mistake this as me being "anti-fauji" but its about the mindset required of these roles.

Math: I agree. I graduated top of my class and when I came out of Pakistan I saw how poor my math skills were compared to people from India, Iran, and China. I had to work really hard to catch up and even now I have several holes.



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) we've been discussing the modalities of possible collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey for years on the Azm thread but one TV interview later the forum has woken up to that discussion and rehashing all of that discussion now lol. I suggest everyone who didn't read the Azm thread before the TV show to go read that thread and be amazed at how what you're about to say here was already discussed to death on that thread lol. Apologies for sounding like a bitter babu.

'cause people don't read bro.

 

[JamD]

'cause people don't read bro.

We should've had that discussion on Twitter in the form of tweets and it would've been accepted as gospel by now. Seriously.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

We should've had that discussion on Twitter in the form of tweets and it would've been accepted as gospel by now. Seriously.

Force OSINT Group (FOG)
Definitive OSINT Ultimate Breaker Team (DOUBT)

 

[Basel]

I think we need to forget India. With jf17 under the belt and now a solid 5th gen program. Indians are way behind.

There is a pattern PAF follow and as we have weak economy compared to India it will be stupid to introduce NGF prior to India.

the aim to use an indigenous engine for the serial production after 2028. tr motor is is developing the engine they are confident of their success. they bought 5 F110 GE engines only for the prototypes.

US engine will not be available for Pakistan and even China is struggling to field potent engine for it's 5th gen bird and took current route of using stop gap engine so same should be taken by Pakistan too as making new engine is not easy.

 

[Trango Towers]

There is a pattern PAF follow and as we have weak economy compared to India it will be stupid to introduce NGF prior to India.



US engine will not be available for Pakistan and even China is struggling to field potent engine for it's 5th gen bird and took current route of using stop gap engine so same should be taken by Pakistan too as making new engine is not easy.

Loooool ok
Patterns can be overlooked when required. Following patterns means you become predictable