Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[Rana4pak]

I have a crazy idea for engine commonality for PAF. PT-FX for PAF with Chinese engine and so, a single engine 5th Gen JV with China as well. Strike platform plus air superiority. F-16 replaced and so the fulfilling post retirement of 4th gen strike platform.

That is not a crazy idea actually PAF following that path way.tTFX along single engine (jf17) some thing like that.

 

[peagle]

I will just refer to few developments where Pakistan played a bigger role but however ignored to be noticed since we don't have a nationalist kind of media projection.

Pakistan made it possible for China to reach KSA defence market or vice versa. It was Pakistan's confidence into certain Chinese equipments to make KSA and UAE to look into it. It was Pakistan that made it possible for regional countries to get out of a growing turmoil aka NATO in Afghanistan. It was China that played a bigger role for Pakistan Thunder engine solution. It was Pakistan that even calm the situation between Turkey and China as well. It will be Pakistan without an issue in regards to fighter jet engine since China has already developed and maturing the tech. On other hand, Turkiye is making progress in this area as well.

Given the key roles played by Pakistan, one cannot ignore the fact that Pakistan can bring in Chinese help to power PT-FX as well.

As the references being mentioned above, without going into details, China can fill in the possible gap for power plant by Europe/US. When we talk about strategic values, decisions and gains; previously Europe and US were only choices given the lack of any other option to fulfill Defence requirements. Now as we speak, China can fill that gap pretty much effectively and actively. Speaking of Islamic world countries; whether China or Russia, they see Pakistan being a gateway given the importance, strength, certain achievements and only nuclear power that defeats 7 times bigger enemy. A Pakistan with strongest and battle hardened military. A Pakistan which is one of the keys to the region. So such an overview aside, there are less constraints in areas of defence collaboration, in this day and age. Turkiye may not be permitted by NATO to go for Chinese solution but at-least, Pakistan can fly away PAF NGFA with such possible Chinese plant. I personally believe that Pakistan did learn a lesson from ATAK gunship power plant fiasco and wouldn't make such decision in haste without.due consideration of risk involving power plant rejection. However and again, Turkiye has progressed a lot and given the time frame, can come out of such hard times.

The media may not present the right optics but a lot can be done when such major powers are invited with good intentions, to a table for solutions.



May be people wouldn't see it but the way TAI CEO mentioned about Pakistan's help during 2nd world war; it speaks volume of moral, self respect, promising, sincerest and a thankful brotherly nation. Even though, Pakistanis did help for not the fame and thanks but the one who remembers all that from generation to next, is not something to be ignored. Pakistan Turkiye bond is stronger. It was responsibility of our great grand parents to stand with brothers in need of times, therefore, the cooperation and collaboration on highest level can't be doubted. The tree has grown and about to give fruit, so the brothers will eat and enjoy together.

Beautiful post, but it was the First world war, before during and after.

 

[Trango Towers]

I mean no disrespect to my country but it feels a little embarrassing when Turkish brothers are being too polite.

1. we have no technological base in aviation (Mirage rebuild and JF-17 assembly don't make us eligible for something as complex as 5th Generation partnership). secondly I am at loss to think what can we offer to Turks in terms of aviation know how which they don't have already.
2. Other limitation is financial health, Turks need a GCC sleeping partner that is willing to sign the USD cheques without a problem with a promise that it will get something comparable to F-35 in the end which the Americans are currently reluctant to supply.

looking at the habits of Pakistani posters, they will wave the Ummah card and will demand the Turks to first design and develop that jet to PDF wish list and then hand it over for free and also provide money for its maintenance and running., failing that will will result in Turkey being down graded to Iran's level of hatred,

Sadly you are a very negative person who thinks every aspects of PAC is out in the media. The design development and production aspects are all there.

Sadly every pakistani thinks that even a frying pan made anywhere other than Pakistan is the best and has such advanced tech that we could never make it.

Thank God reality is different from peoples perception

 

[Falcon26]

Unless Pakistan and Turkey can loop in Saudi Arabia or UAE to join the program, the engine component is doomed to fail. A program that includes either Saudi Arabia or the UAE will entice Rolls Royce to reconsider joining.

If that’s not an option, TFX should be designed with a Russian or Chinese engine in mind. I am very skeptical that Turkey will have a mature engine that can power a 5th generation fighter for at least a decade.

Project AZM was always a pipe dream. I never had high hopes in this mermaid project. It was Pakistan’s version of the LCA, but unlike India, Pakistan neither had the funds nor the time.

 

[Big_bud]

I mean no disrespect to my country but it feels a little embarrassing when Turkish brothers are being too polite.

1. we have no technological base in aviation (Mirage rebuild and JF-17 assembly don't make us eligible for something as complex as 5th Generation partnership). secondly I am at loss to think what can we offer to Turks in terms of aviation know how which they don't have already.
2. Other limitation is financial health, Turks need a GCC sleeping partner that is willing to sign the USD cheques without a problem with a promise that it will get something comparable to F-35 in the end which the Americans are currently reluctant to supply.

looking at the habits of Pakistani posters, they will wave the Ummah card and will demand the Turks to first design and develop that jet to PDF wish list and then hand it over for free and also provide money for its maintenance and running., failing that will will result in Turkey being down graded to Iran's level of hatred,

Do you think Turkey can build a indigenous jet on its own? And it would be at par with the rest? Nope... it has taken China 20 years + to be where it is. Turkey can start with making some systems and sub systems, not the whole aircraft.

Do you think Turkey can develop an engine? Nope...

Do you think USA would let Turkey have F110s? Nope... not with Erdogan as the head of state.

TFX had all chances of failure if no one had partnered.

Turkish economy is also suffering. Its credit rating is going down. Turkey is basically experiencing a full scale economic and socio political melt down attempt by USA. Like they have been doing for years with Pakistan.

It is Pakistan in fact which can help Turkey obtain Chinese Engines for TFX. And can get China to assist with where Turkey gets stuck. Pakistan can also invest in the project and ease off the R&D budget. It can also take bulk of mundane and lower skilled manufacturing tasks. Plus with Chinese engines TFX would get customers. With American engines (even if America agrees to sell them) TFX would have not have any customers.

Your analysis is completely wrong and opposite. I believe without China as a collaborator, Turkish TFX has all chances of failure or chronic delays. Or becoming something like Tejas, good on paper, shit in real! Pakistan is the key to such collaboration.

 

[CrazyZ]

I would expect Azerbaijan and Qatar to join eventually as well...maybe even UAE. MENA Fighter 2030

 

[Zarvan]

@Zarvan so this is the western aircraft which was being talked about in j10c thread. Suspense turning into a Lil disappointment because of the expected timelines.

No this is not the one. I never said western air craft I am also making a guess. It is Tipu who referred to something called Butt and I am taking a guess that it's a jet from west. No not this one.

 

[Indos]

PAF joining TFX program was an eventuality. Pakistan on it's own does not have the resources to design, develop and manufacture 5th generation aircraft even if some foreign country aids us it will take years and years however if we collaborate with turkey and focus on just a few aspects of aircraft production e.g composite materials and airframe production we will in the long term learn how to produce high end high quality airframes and composites .... similarly we can focus on producing and contributing in R&D of electronics/ AESA radar .... Turkey adopted a similar approach and developed it's aviation industry in a short amount of time... TFX also gives access of high end Western avionics and technology to PAF.

Do you think Turkey can build a indigenous jet on its own? And it would be at par with the rest? Nope... it has taken China 20 years + to be where it is. Turkey can start with making some systems and sub systems, not the whole aircraft.

Do you think Turkey can develop an engine? Nope...

Do you think USA would let Turkey have F110s? Nope... not with Erdogan as the head of state.

TFX had all chances of failure if no one had partnered.

Turkish economy is also suffering. Its credit rating is going down. Turkey is basically experiencing a full scale economic and socio political melt down attempt by USA. Like they have been doing for years with Pakistan.

It is Pakistan in fact which can help Turkey obtain Chinese Engines for TFX. And can get China to assist with where Turkey gets stuck. Pakistan can also invest in the project and ease off the R&D budget. It can also take bulk of mundane and lower skilled manufacturing tasks. Plus with Chinese engines TFX would get customers. With American engines (even if America agrees to sell them) TFX would have not have any customers.

Your analysis is completely wrong and opposite. I believe without China as a collaborator, Turkish TFX has all chances of failure or chronic delays. Or becoming something like Tejas, good on paper, shit in real! Pakistan is the key to such collaboration.

There are 100 BAE System engineers working on TFX design phase, that numbers are huge.

About engine, it will use American F 110 GE engine.

This is the right time to join since Turkey is in difficult situation. There will be deal on the level of participation, if Pakistan make it quick, it can still contribute on CDR design phase as one of Turkish member said TFX is still in PDR (Preliminary Design Phase).

Manufacturing can be quite significant as partner like PAK will become part of supply chain for fuselage parts and do the assembling and system integration for PAK order.

Turkey will likely become more friendly partner on the program compared to China. Something like internship program to work in TAI for young engineers and many kind of training program to young engineers can happen with Turkey as senior partner.

Not to mention, testing phase and further development that will touch even design phase again and wind tunnel testing which is normal for continuous development

 

[Thorough Pro]

PDF members should learn from 10-year-old Turkish Kids.

 

[KaiserX]

There is no way the US nor Europe would allow Turkey access to fighter engines. In the beginning they will make false promises to get contracts and funding. When the time comes for production they will pull the rugs from right under the feet of the project. Unless there is a complete geopolitical U turn in the next 2-3 years, highly unlikely. US defence companies work according to US foreign policy. Turkey/Pakistan are naughty boys and are allies in name but highly out of favor. This put both nations in a tricky spot where 1 is a NATO ally and the other a NON-NATO ally (which the US is also legally required to protect militarily by law).

US does not want to make Europe especially Greece and France unhappy when it comes to Turkey. Likewise for India when it comes to Pakistan. This makes China the natural benefactor when it comes to military contracts involved in the TFX venture. I can easily see SAC/CAC now replacing BAE/Lockheed/Raytheon in a major International military project that TFX will become. With the Inclusion of Pakistan the export market for the TFX expands significantly manyfold. We all know the reputation/influence of the PAF on the airforces in the middle east/africa/east asia.

This is how west applies pressure. More than likely Pakistan will design its version of the TFX around Chinese engines and also use a combination of Chinese/Domestic/Turkish subsystems. I would not be surprised if Pakistans version of the TFX is a lot closer to the J-31 than the Turkish version of the TFX. Call me crazy, but ive pointed out many times before that logically it made sense for KAMRA to go with a joint venture for the AZM fighter. Now I strongly believe the Engines/ Avionics/ Possibly even the AESA radar will all be Chinese made

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Indos]

Just to be clear, the biggest hurdle both Turkey & Pakistan face is the Engine.

And TAI wants to fit a F110-GE-129 to test and aircraft, only to replace it with something they're not certain about - to date.

Now I'm no Engineer, but let's use Commercial Aviation as a reference and the issue BOEING faced with the latest variant of the B737-MAX.

By introducing the new cfm LEAP-1B on a 40 Year old airframe changed the dynamics completely as the size of the Engine got bigger, compared to its previous variant (cfm 56), but it also possibly changed the Weight and Balance. And to fix the difference, they introduced the MCAS. That f#*kup led to two disastrous crashes (Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines). Eventually leading to the Aircraft being Grounded Worldwide*.

Q. How can TAI/PAC fit a GE, do all the Test and then later replace it with XYZ?
@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

*By the way, I recommend everyone to watch Netflix's - DOWNFALL: The case against BOEING

For the engine, I believe they are going to use F 110 even during mass production. Turkey engine I rather see as side project, PAK should not bear the engine development cost unless PAK can get meaningful TOT and shared production.

What Pakistan should take if they want to join TFX beside what I said in above post is assurance from USA about the use of F 110 into TFX program.

Erdo will likely be replaced in the next election

 

[KaiserX]

For the engine, I believe they are going to use F 110 even during mass production. Turkey engine I rather see as side project, PAK should not bear the engine development cost unless PAK can get meaningful TOT and shared production.

What Pakistan should take if they want to join TFX beside what I said in above post is assurance from USA about the use of F 110 into TFX program.

Erdo will likely be replaced in the next election

No way US will provide Turkey nor Pakistan F110 engines under the current geopolitical scenario. It would risk irking key EU members, India, and Many middle eastern states including the UAE/KSA.

Pakistan would most likely design its version of the TFX around Chinese engines and subsystems (AESA radar).

 

[CrazyZ]

For the engine, I believe they are going to use F 110 even during mass production. Turkey engine I rather see as side project, PAK should not bear the engine development cost unless PAK can get meaningful TOT and shared production.

What Pakistan should take if they want to join TFX beside what I said in above post is assurance from USA about the use of F 110 into TFX program.

Erdo will likely be replaced in the next election

Bad taste from T129 saga......Pakistan should never use a USA engine in its version of TFX. USA is simple not a reliable partner for Pakistan or Turkey. For PAF, better options will be Chinese or Russian engines since they will compatible with JF-17 (hence improve logistics for PAF). Either upgraded versions of RD93 or Chinese equivalent. Best would be a local MENA engine....but based on experience in other countries....this may take some time to get right.

 

[Big_bud]

There are 100 BAE System engineers working on TFX design phase, that numbers are huge.

About engine, it will use American F 110 GE engine.

This is the right time to join since Turkey is in difficult situation. There will be deal on the level of participation, if Pakistan make it quick, it can still contribute on CDR design phase as one of Turkish member said TFX is still in PDR (Preliminary Design Phase).

Manufacturing can be quite significant as partner like PAK will become part of supply chain for fuselage parts and do the assembling and system integration for PAK order.

Turkey will likely become more friendly partner on the program compared to China. Something like internship program to work in TAI for young engineers and many kind of training program to young engineers can happen with Turkey as senior partner.

Not to mention, testing phase and further development that will touch even design phase again and wind tunnel testing which is normal for continuous development

What makes you think BAE System co-operation would not be pulled out by US interreference at any time? Remember Grumen pulling out of JF17 program?

Turkey won't be getting F110s. Just like its not getting F35s. That's how west/US behaves. You are liberal/non-islamic country? You get what you want. But if you have your own belief system, specially Islamic system. You are picked on. Perhaps you won't get this. Turkey needs co-operation otherwise it would have serious defence issues. Depending on west's assessment of Turkish motives, Turkey can see tribulations in every and anything it tries to do.

 

[Flight of falcon]

I think members are missing one crucial point. Turkey perhaps lost a lot more than what Pakistan did. Turkey lost billions, prestige, chance to break into combat helicopter market among many other critical issues.

After F35 saga that are well aware that they will never achieve anything unless their reliance on American technology is removed. They will still get tremendous amount of help from the European companies and I am confident they will be able to develop replacements for American hardware.