Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[KaiserX]

It's worth noting that if Pakistan was genuinely interested, it'd take a few years to just draft the accord/agreement. MMU is serious. It'd take a lot of negotiation, audits, and investigation to figure out offsets, co-production, IP sharing, etc. The amount of money involved would be as much as CPEC.

You gotta be kidding me. Designing, testing, and manufactering a 5th generation fighter is no easy task and something which cant be done by 90% of nations in the world but to put it at CPEC level of technical expertise or funding would be a joke/mistatement. CPEC covers a wide range of different projects estimated at 60bn today more than likely reaching 100bn over the next decade.

In our part of the cost of manufactering/labor/matierials are super cheap compared to developed countries.Give me 5bn USD and ill give you a 5th generation manufactering plant at KAMRA, a few initial prototypes as well as the first squadron of the jets within 5 years

If you broke the 5bn up I believe the PAF has already spent atleast 500million USD now on the AZM program overall. No clear figures just an estimate. Now going forward work will be split with the Turks. Both sides will start off with the existing infrastructure that has already been developed and go from there.

 

[Zarf]

I mean no disrespect to my country but it feels a little embarrassing when Turkish brothers are being too polite.

1. we have no technological base in aviation (Mirage rebuild and JF-17 assembly don't make us eligible for something as complex as 5th Generation partnership). secondly I am at loss to think what can we offer to Turks in terms of aviation know how which they don't have already.
2. Other limitation is financial health, Turks need a GCC sleeping partner that is willing to sign the USD cheques without a problem with a promise that it will get something comparable to-35 in the end which the Americans are currently reluctant to supply.

looking at the habits of Pakistani posters, they will wave the Ummah card and will demand the Turks to first design and develop that jet to PDF wish list and then and it over for free and also provide money for its maintenance and running., failing that will will result in Turky being down graded to Iran's level of hatred,

This is exactly what I am looking for, an answer to a very legitimate question of 'why will they choose us'? Looks only possible when the timeline is pretty long, in my humble opinion.

 

[Trailer23]

Just to be clear, the biggest hurdle both Turkey & Pakistan face is the Engine.

And TAI wants to fit a F110-GE-129 to test and aircraft, only to replace it with something they're not certain about - to date.

Now I'm no Engineer, but let's use Commercial Aviation as a reference and the issue BOEING faced with the latest variant of the B737-MAX.

By introducing the new cfm LEAP-1B on a 40 Year old airframe changed the dynamics completely as the size of the Engine got bigger, compared to its previous variant (cfm 56), but it also possibly changed the Weight and Balance. And to fix the difference, they introduced the MCAS. That f#*kup led to two disastrous crashes (Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines). Eventually leading to the Aircraft being Grounded Worldwide*.

Q. How can TAI/PAC fit a GE, do all the Test and then later replace it with XYZ?
@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

*By the way, I recommend everyone to watch Netflix's - DOWNFALL: The case against BOEING

 

[Flight of falcon]

I mean no disrespect to my country but it feels a little embarrassing when Turkish brothers are being too polite.

1. we have no technological base in aviation (Mirage rebuild and JF-17 assembly don't make us eligible for something as complex as 5th Generation partnership). secondly I am at loss to think what can we offer to Turks in terms of aviation know how which they don't have already.
2. Other limitation is financial health, Turks need a GCC sleeping partner that is willing to sign the USD cheques without a problem with a promise that it will get something comparable to-35 in the end which the Americans are currently reluctant to supply.

looking at the habits of Pakistani posters, they will wave the Ummah card and will demand the Turks to first design and develop that jet to PDF wish list and then and it over for free and also provide money for its maintenance and running., failing that will will result in Turky being down graded to Iran's level of hatred,

When I first joined practice straight out of school I wondered why someone wanted me as an associate.

20 years later I am the senior associate in my practice . I once asked the owner why he picked me 20 years back when I had hardly any experience and his response was that he saw potential in me.

Turks are not stupid. They are thinking 20 years in the future . I am very close to some Turkish friends here. They have an ambition, history and dedication with them. They are making strategic investments all over that will pay over time. They are in Africa , Middle East and Central Asia . There are over hundred million people of Turkish heritage outside Turkey. They want to make friends in far away lands and they are perfectly suited in Pakistan where we look up to them as superior in almost every aspect.

Turks love Pakistan and love our Air Force . There is no denying that. Ask any random Turk on the street in Ankara.

I personally have no doubt that we shall rise in the next decade and become a regional power. Turks perhaps see the same thing. Why not invest little now and get larger payoff in the future in terms of strategic relationship and rekindle historical and cultural connections?

Sometimes it’s not about the money…… look at the Saudis and UAE … they have all the money but no respect or positive influence any where ……

Fear and money can only take you so far…..

 

[kursed]

Understandable but the horizon for AZM NGF was always going to be 2040ish. So it’s not the current, short or even mid-term threats it was meant for but the purpose was to provide a contemporary aircraft for the world of ~2040 and provide fleet replacement option around 15-20 years from now.

I doubt there's anything PAF can contribute in the short-term to the Turk program. They will in all probability do what they did with J10 program. That's to develop some internal knowledge base, have a team attached, then buy into the program once it becomes viable. OTOH, if push comes to shove, they have the Chinese option on the table, as is.

 

[ghazi52]

Pakistan and Turkish Aerospace - Future​

 

[Big_bud]

Remember this image from PAF? Its a TFX with canards isn't it? Pretty similar.

 

[JamD]

Just to be clear, the biggest hurdle both Turkey & Pakistan face is the Engine.

And TAI wants to fit a F110-GE-129 to test and aircraft, only to replace it with something they're not certain about - to date.

Now I'm no Engineer, but let's use Commercial Aviation as a reference and the issue BOEING faced with the latest variant of the B737-MAX.

By introducing the new cfm LEAP-1B on a 40 Year old airframe changed the dynamics completely as the size of the Engine got bigger, compared to its previous variant (cfm 56), but it also possibly changed the Weight and Balance. And to fix the difference, they introduced the MCAS. That f#*kup led to two disastrous crashes (Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines). Eventually leading to the Aircraft being Grounded Worldwide*.

Q. How can TAI/PAC fit a GE, do all the Test and then later replace it with XYZ?
@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

*By the way, I recommend everyone to watch Netflix's - DOWNFALL: The case against BOEING

I had a feeling you had seen the documentary while I was reading your post lol.

Nothing that drastic will happen if an aircraft is re-engined with an engine of a similar class. You don't have engines beneath wings causing clearance issues for starters. There are other issues but not 737 max issues.

 

[The Eagle]

Big question is engine, would Turkey able to develop one and that also in given timeframe, otherwise on what grounds did Pakistan decide to go that route?
That would be interesting to know.

I will just refer to few developments where Pakistan played a bigger role but however ignored to be noticed since we don't have a nationalist kind of media projection.

Pakistan made it possible for China to reach KSA defence market or vice versa. It was Pakistan's confidence into certain Chinese equipments to make KSA and UAE to look into it. It was Pakistan that made it possible for regional countries to get out of a growing turmoil aka NATO in Afghanistan. It was China that played a bigger role for Pakistan Thunder engine solution. It was Pakistan that even calm the situation between Turkey and China as well. It will be Pakistan without an issue in regards to fighter jet engine since China has already developed and maturing the tech. On other hand, Turkiye is making progress in this area as well.

Given the key roles played by Pakistan, one cannot ignore the fact that Pakistan can bring in Chinese help to power PT-FX as well.

As the references being mentioned above, without going into details, China can fill in the possible gap for power plant by Europe/US. When we talk about strategic values, decisions and gains; previously Europe and US were only choices given the lack of any other option to fulfill Defence requirements. Now as we speak, China can fill that gap pretty much effectively and actively. Speaking of Islamic world countries; whether China or Russia, they see Pakistan being a gateway given the importance, strength, certain achievements and only nuclear power that defeats 7 times bigger enemy. A Pakistan with strongest and battle hardened military. A Pakistan which is one of the keys to the region. So such an overview aside, there are less constraints in areas of defence collaboration, in this day and age. Turkiye may not be permitted by NATO to go for Chinese solution but at-least, Pakistan can fly away PAF NGFA with such possible Chinese plant. I personally believe that Pakistan did learn a lesson from ATAK gunship power plant fiasco and wouldn't make such decision in haste without.due consideration of risk involving power plant rejection. However and again, Turkiye has progressed a lot and given the time frame, can come out of such hard times.

The media may not present the right optics but a lot can be done when such major powers are invited with good intentions, to a table for solutions.

My beard doesn't know what's inside my head - Fatih Sultan Mehmet Han

May be people wouldn't see it but the way TAI CEO mentioned about Pakistan's help during 2nd world war; it speaks volume of moral, self respect, promising, sincerest and a thankful brotherly nation. Even though, Pakistanis did help for not the fame and thanks but the one who remembers all that from generation to next, is not something to be ignored. Pakistan Turkiye bond is stronger. It was responsibility of our great grand parents to stand with brothers in need of times, therefore, the cooperation and collaboration on highest level can't be doubted. The tree has grown and about to give fruit, so the brothers will eat and enjoy together.

 

[tphuang]

Just to be clear, the biggest hurdle both Turkey & Pakistan face is the Engine.

And TAI wants to fit a F110-GE-129 to test and aircraft, only to replace it with something they're not certain about - to date.

Now I'm no Engineer, but let's use Commercial Aviation as a reference and the issue BOEING faced with the latest variant of the B737-MAX.

By introducing the new cfm LEAP-1B on a 40 Year old airframe changed the dynamics completely as the size of the Engine got bigger, compared to its previous variant (cfm 56), but it also possibly changed the Weight and Balance. And to fix the difference, they introduced the MCAS. That f#*kup led to two disastrous crashes (Lion Air & Ethiopian Airlines). Eventually leading to the Aircraft being Grounded Worldwide*.

Q. How can TAI/PAC fit a GE, do all the Test and then later replace it with XYZ?
@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

*By the way, I recommend everyone to watch Netflix's - DOWNFALL: The case against BOEING

The hardest thing to do in a real 5th generation aircraft is stealth. It takes tremendous amount of industrial strength to first develop a 5th generation aircraft that can maneuver like one and not be overweight while also making it extremely hard to track. You need serious level of manufacturing precision to do everything perfectly so that each aircraft you build has the designed level of stealth.

Just take a look at the Russians. They have decades of experience and they cannot build an aircraft that can really be described as 5th generation. The production quality of the su-57 prototypes were terrible. Got a little better with the 3 production su-57s, but it still isn't at the level you'd expect for a 5th generation aircraft.

Every nationalist have the desire for their nation develop 5th generation aircraft and engine. Guess what, it's really hard. All these European countries that have decades of aircraft development history are still relying 4.5 generation aircraft or waiting for F-35s. Turkey can brag all it wants, but it's most realistic 5th generation options are F-35 or FC-31.

 

[ghazi52]

Mou was signed by TAI and PAC NUST in Dec 2020...

 

[The Eagle]

Ignoring the differences regarding the interfaces of the engines: Which engine for example? It would be a huuuge surprise if China proposes a new generation engine for this project. Instead, they can offer their own jets to Pakistan.

I have a crazy idea for engine commonality for PAF. PT-FX for PAF with Chinese engine and so, a single engine 5th Gen JV with China as well. Strike platform plus air superiority. F-16 replaced and so the fulfilling post retirement of 4th gen strike platform.

 

[StormBreaker]

Nothing is dead neither it has to be taken in other words. NGF falls under AZM which is an umbrella to all new developments in regard to need of Pakistan Defence. I don't know why people keeps missing the point. I have already explained in the OP.

AZM is all about NGF, UAVs etc so that one thread cannot cater information or the information gets lost in pages. If you mean 100% indigenous for in-house then you should go back to the first page of AZM then read into what ACM Sohail Aman said back in 2017 and then try to understand what's new about Pakistan Turkiye collaboration.

This is a great news indeed.

It has always been my wish to see a Joint project which has Pak, Turk and Middle East as partners. I hope to see UAE getting into TFX as well InshaAllah as it’s a great option for them.

 

[The Eagle]

My worries were correct. At least they support each other in a calibrated way.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1496210247962275840

The argument of merger, was wrong from start by those twitter experts. Therefore, social media sensational posts may not be relied upon. Collaboration is repeatedly said and emphasized.

 

[Mustang125]

few initial prototypes as well as the first squadron of the jets within 5 years

Give me 5 bn and I will run away from the country lol