Pakistan Tribes Turn Against Army

[KS]

Good Read, thank you but it doesn't change the fact that Pakistan got her Independence from British India not its successor state. Which is different than the dynamics that exist between two sovereign states whether it be Pakistan & India or Pakistan & Afghanistan.

That is a matter of interpretation. The general consensus is - Therefore, following the theory of state succession, Pakistan would be regarded as having broken off and become a new state and, as a new non-member state, must seek admission to the United nations pursuant to the provisions of Article 4 of the Charter. But Pakistan does have the right to interpret it as broken off from British India and not from its sucessor state, the Republic of India.

Where does such an arrangement exist between the States of Pakistan & Afghanistan or the States of India & Pakistan in case of the Indian Muslim thing ?

I'm not able to get what you are trying to say ? Abit more clear please. I'll just say the agreement existed between the States of Afghanistan and British India that KPK would be leased to them for 99 years and after that it would be returned to Afghanistan. Actually the case for Afghan claim on KPK is stronger in that sense, that Kashmir's accession to India is legally valid according to Partition plan when the Maharaja acceded to India.

 

[Areesh]

Both have different history but the reason for claim is same. Anyway, I'll let Amstrong answer that. Atleast he is somewhat mature and tries to reason.

Well we can claim Dehli too. Won't make it equal to IOK or KPK. You can to talk to Armstrong. I am sure he would be feeling bored talking about such idiocy and that too again and again.

I couldnt give a damn as to what you take it as. Answering your tantrums is very low on my priority list. Let's not prolong this discussion.

Well if you come up with a lie that KPK was leased for 100 years and when I provided durand line agreement to prove it and then you don't show up after that. I think it is safe to assume that you ran away. Anyways lets see how far will you go with your lies. I am here.

 

[KS]

Well we can claim Dehli too.

Delhi was not leased to India by the Amir of Pakistan for 99 years. wrong comparison.

 

[Areesh]

Delhi was not leased to India by the Amir of Pakistan for 99 years. wrong comparison.

And so wasn't KPK.

 

[KS]

And so wasn't KPK.

Actually pursuant to the article I mentioned to Armstrong as to how, India was the sole sucessor state and Pakistan was *NOT*, it does not stand to reason that the agreement signed by India and Afghanistan can be used to Pakistan to justify its occupation of KPK. Once when Pakistan broke out of (british) India, all the treaties signed by British India were obligated to be carried forward only by India and as such Afghanistan and India have no territorial claims. Rather Afghanistan has rather legal claims with Pakistan - which by virtue of it not being the sucessor state to the British India - cannot hope to use the Durand Agreement to ward off Afghan claim on KPK.

Anyway the point being of this whole off-topic chain is that the argument that having more number of people does not mean anything.

 

[Areesh]

Actually pursuant to the article I mentioned to Armstrong as to how, India was the sole sucessor state and Pakistan was *NOT*, it does not stand to reason that the agreement signed by India and Afghanistan can be used to Pakistan to justify its occupation of KPK. Once when Pakistan broke out of (british) India, all the treaties signed by British India were obligated to be carried forward only by India and as such Afghanistan and India have no territorial claims. Rather Afghanistan has rather legal claims with Pakistan - which by virtue of it not being the sucessor state to the British India - cannot hope to use the Durand Agreement to ward off Afghan claim on KPK.

KPK wasn't leased to anyone for 100 years , 99 years or for any other term. I want you to prove that KPK was leased for 99 years as you said about Dehli.

 

[KS]

KPK wasn't leased to anyone for 100 years , 99 years or for any other term. I want you to prove that KPK was leased for 99 years as you said about Dehli.

Read what I wrote. Actually it was not even required for those years. The Durand agreement which was negotiated between Afghanistan and (British) India could be interpreted as null and void after Pakistan broke off from British India. Actually that is what the Afghans are doing.

 

[Areesh]

Read what I wrote. Actually it was not even required for those years. The Durand agreement which was negotiated between Afghanistan and (British) India could be interpreted as null and void after Pakistan broke off from British India. Actually that is what the Afghans are doing.

You said "Delhi was not leased to India by the Amir of Pakistan for 99 years. wrong comparison." So you want to say that Amir of Afghanistan leased KPK for 99 years to British. Prove this duration.

Simple.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

This is where it gets confusing. So the tribals must seek revenge when PA or drones cause civilian causlaties due to collateral damage.

But Taliban have killed many more in targetted attacks against tribal civilians. What happens to the cultural compulsion of seeking revenge against Taliban???

It still very much exists which is why many tribal lashkars are allowed to operate against them. It's a far too complex situation for most people here on PDF who aren't from or haven't been to tribal areas.

What I do advocate is for FATA to be integrated into what is now Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and for the province as a whole to be broken down into administrative units. The current setup has only helped create power vacuum. Incompetence and blatant corruption are a huge factor.

Khyber Agency has been a troubled area for much of the past 4-5 years; security presence there has been essential. Without it, the enemies of the state could easily regroup. It's bad enough that Afghanistan has been less than cooperative on securing its side but we have no control over that, at least for now.

As for Durand line, it's a non issue.

 

[INDIC]

It still very much exists which is why many tribal lashkars are allowed to operate against them. It's a far too complex situation for most people here on PDF who aren't from or haven't been to tribal areas.

What I do advocate is for FATA to be integrated into what is now Khyber Pakhtunkhwa and for the province as a whole to be broken down into administrative units. The current setup has only helped create power vacuum. Incompetence and blatant corruption are a huge factor.

Khyber Agency has been a troubled area for much of the past 4-5 years; security presence there has been essential. Without it, the enemies of the state could easily regroup. It's bad enough that Afghanistan has been less than cooperative on securing its side but we have no control over that, at least for now.

As for Durand line, it's a non issue.

I read that Pakistani troops entered in Tirah valley for the first time since 1947. So, who basically guarded Pakistan-Afghanistan border in FATA when there are no PA presence there.

You said "Delhi was not leased to India by the Amir of Pakistan for 99 years. wrong comparison." So you want to say that Amir of Afghanistan leased KPK for 99 years to British. Prove this duration.

Simple.

Why you gave example of Delhi.

 

[notsuperstitious]

It still very much exists which is why many tribal lashkars are allowed to operate against them. It's a far too complex situation for most people here on PDF who aren't from or haven't been to tribal areas.

Must be. I know your own Turi tribe has put up a fight against Taliban. However atleast some Turis too harbor a distrust of PA because they felt PA had a soft spot for Taliban and did not provide safety to Turis. I've heard that from many Turis here in Dubai.

Sure is a very complex situation.

 

[KS]

You said "Delhi was not leased to India by the Amir of Pakistan for 99 years. wrong comparison." So you want to say that Amir of Afghanistan leased KPK for 99 years to British. Prove this duration.

Simple.

I said Read what I wrote. Actually it was not even required for those years. The Durand agreement which was negotiated between Afghanistan and (British) India could be interpreted as null and void after Pakistan broke off from British India. Actually that is what the Afghans are doing.

Instead of looking at the bigger picture you are bickering on small technicalities..

 

[haviZsultan]

Sorry to rain on your parade..but if not for a Indian Muslim called Jinnah today you would be a Afghan...no pathan ever fought for the idealogy or creation of pakistan..the creation of Pakistan was an Indian muslim struggle all the way.

Then who was Abdur Rab Nishtar?
17 out of 30 assembly were won by Muslim League so suggesting Pashtuns had no role is foolish.

@ghilzai my family left in Lucknow supported Pakistan and Hasrat Mohani died in our Firangi Mahal house. It is a perception. My anger is at the families that moved to Pakistan and how they became very racist eventually (its only at 1/2 or 2/5 of my relatives which are in Pakistan). Even I call myself migrant sometimes because I did shift from Lucknow and believe the city is part of Pakistan but I refuse the term muhajir or urdu speaker because it is used to divide from my people and for various reasons deny it completely.

I do not personally hate my family for its racism but dislike their attitude. I can't hate my family and we moved very late from Lucknow so both parents born in lucknow and bred there. I was also explaining to Safriz and other members like darkinsky how stupid a lot of this is.

When he swears at Pashtuns he also insults muhajirs, because basically when muhajirs moved from India a lot were actually Pashtuns themselves-for example the rohillas. Similarly insulting Muhajirs is the same thing too because our family may deny it but it may very well have strong Pashtun links because we are from same area where Rohillas were strong (UP). I mean I disagree with them calling themselves Muhajir and insult them for it too but I don't think it is right to consider them a mistake in Pakistan. They are very patriotic-just racism has become an intrinsic part-they abuse other ethnic groups which I don't like. (Note here that when muhajirs moved those who spoke urdu and even if they were 100% Pashtuns started calling themselves Muhajir which was mistake again-but when Pashtun insults muhajir he is insulting them also and vice versa )

But there is no doubt Pashtuns/Sindhis/Balochs/Punjabis are original inhabitants of this land. I don't know how apologizing would work since I consider myself Pashtun but I apologize for the mistakes of our family. Just note they and even muslims left in India were never anti-Pakistani. I have uncles there in Lucknow still supporting Pakistan. I know entire families affiliated with sufferers witness who help us move these people. No love for India whatsoever. The ones who became pro India we lost them by treating them separate from us. I see them as my left bazu

 

[Imran Khan]

my massage to tribes be human and civil or be ready for death

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Must be. I know your own Turi tribe has put up a fight against Taliban. However atleast some Turis too harbor a distrust of PA because they felt PA had a soft spot for Taliban and did not provide safety to Turis. I've heard that from many Turis here in Dubai.

Sure is a very complex situation.

Many Turris in the army, including relatives of mine. (I served too)

Turri and Bangash tribes were approached by army regarding peace talks and safe passage of certain afghan groups that requested kurram route in exchange for them renouncing violence (including sectarian)

That was circa 2009. The army also reopened the kohat tunnel which was being blocked and causing major harm to the agencies - kurram included

Yes it's a complex situation and I don't think you Indians or even many Pakistanis fully comprehend it but I trust the Army and the whole nation should. Not to say there haven't been failures but on the whole part they've done well and there's slightly more normalcy now than there was even a couple years ago. They are good but they aren't God.