Pakistan Tribes Turn Against Army

[pk_baloch]

@ safriz damag satya gaya he kiya ....tribals ko pakistan se alag karne ka ...once u give the lost love,trust and respect to tribal peoples ,they will forget everything and start to kiss ur feet ......

 

[KS]

What you established before was :

1. Membership of all international organizations together with the rights and obligations attaching to such membership will devolve solely upon the Dominion of India

Right and obligations - meaning treaties and agreements. They devolved solely to India, not Pakistan. Please read carefully.

So its essentially wholly unsubstantiated ! I've read Mr. Norrani's article but it borrows from the same Patel's Papers that in them self provide as much evidence to substantiate what did or did not happen as the evidentiary basis of forming an opinion on Kargil whilst pitting Musharaf's book against Nawaz Sharif's.

Surely if an offer was made it would be in some sort of documentary form like such was the case in all past offers.

Yaar how can it be unsubstantiated if a book quotes it and a noted lawyer and historian again refers to it ? Surely the first edition came out in 1972 which explains the lack of an e-book. This is just denial on your part to accept a fact that undermines Pakistani claim on Kashmir.

Infact you would be surprised to know that Patel saab (patel saab had no emotional connection with Kashmir and he was a pragmatist unlike Nehru who was an idealist and had personal connection with Kashmir) was ready to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan if Jinnah agreed to relinquish his claim on Hyderabad and Junagadh. But jinnah was not ready for it. The mentality of both Jinnah and LAK was that they were confident that Kashmir would somehow come to Pakistan and hence they should not agree for a concession on Hyderabad.

 

[pk_baloch]

I heard America will stay till 2024.

will america exist till 2024?

 

[haviZsultan]

There was a programme on Geo channel in which a female host was interviewing shahid afridi and his family members, she asked him what langauge your kids speak at home. Afridi said Pashto. The stupid host said why not urdu? It is our national langauge. Our afridi replied that her daughters learn urdu at schools, then he went on explaining importance of mother tongue for childern.
Many pakistanis are also critical of the fact that a national level player like shahid afridi keep his wife under strict purdah , they want to see pictures of her wife.
There are countless other examples.

I have personally witnessed what you say in our families as they consider Urdu to be some form of thing that has extreme importance but I believe Afridi handled that very well and very professionally. He is a pure Khyberian.

They continue to hold that Urdu is a really important and national language that must be maintained. That host had that intrinsic bias in her. But why focus on divisions. Its a problem with all people. Why use this and direct this along anti-Pakistani lines. You do not see the positive in me adopting Pashto gradually but only see the negative.

 

[haviZsultan]

What you established before was :

1. Membership of all international organizations together with the rights and obligations attaching to such membership will devolve solely upon the Dominion of India

2. The Dominion of Pakistan will take such steps as may be necessary to apply for membership of such international organisations as it chooses to join. (25)

A treaty is not the same as membership of an International Organization. Furthermore, as you rightly pointed out, Article 62 of the Convention on the Law of Treaties between States and International Organisations (1986) provides likewise that a fundamental change of circumstances may not be invoked, as a ground for terminating or withdrawing from a treaty between two or more states and one or more international organisations, if the treaty establishes a boundary.

Additionally treaties are not revoked unilaterally but before an International Tribunal - the International Court of Justice; Afghanistan has yet to take Pakistan to the ICJ to further its stand.

One might even consider asking British India why it agreed for a referendum in NWFP considering the the legal position that Pakistan would find herself in after the Partitioning of India. Does it not, also, follow that by agreeing to a fundamental change in NWFP, a referendum on joining its partitioned territory, British India in fact endorsed the devolution of her legal rights & obligations as per the Treaty to Pakistan.

And yes I'm still waiting for the 99 year lease clause !



So its essentially wholly unsubstantiated ! I've read Mr. Norrani's article but it borrows from the same Patel's Papers that in them self provide as much evidence to substantiate what did or did not happen as the evidentiary basis of forming an opinion on Kargil whilst pitting Musharaf's book against Nawaz Sharif's.

Surely if an offer was made it would be in some sort of documentary form like such was the case in all past offers.



And Martians landing in their flying saucers; koiii tou evidence ho gaaa ? Anything pictorial, any captured Pakistani soldiers, any intercepted cargo flights....anything ?

PIA did not even exist at that time by the way.

Blaming the Pakistanis for Deccan discontent is a hallucination. I saw a lot of people who didn't care about Pakistan but were very anti-Indian.

 

[haviZsultan]

By family i too meant your relatives. Now suck it up smartass.

Lol. Since when is disagreeing with a wrong wrong? My loyalty to both my fathers side and mothers side is proven otherwise I wouldn't be so committed to the affairs of Ansaris. As I said earlier I cannot and will not hate them but am alienated with their behavior, you typical Indian troll.

I never stated I hated the family or something. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you want you can put the word KS lacks a brain and I will say it but stop letting your stupidity at birth come in the way of debate.

 

[Safriz]

@ safriz damag satya gaya he kiya ....tribals ko pakistan se alag karne ka ...once u give the lost love,trust and respect to tribal peoples ,they will forget everything and start to kiss ur feet ......

Enemies of state should be banished to where ever they have loyalty for...
My comments were focussed at those who have more Loyalty towards Afghanistan than Pakistan..They should go to Afghanistan as that's the country they are loyal to...

About Giving love...
Thats not how a country functions...If one Army operation..One flood..One Akber Bugti's death...or one Kalabagh dam can make you enemy of Pakistan,you shouldn't be in the country...
If everybody wants others to give them their rights and want others to do the dirty work for them..It wont work and it hasn't..
All regions have to do work for themselves..People should start blaming their local leaders they elected..Hold them responsible for their Backwardness..Not the whole country..
GOP does release funds to Members of National and Provincial assemblies and they eat it all up..Then say they get Nothing for development work in their area and People are so stupid that they believe them and instead of Holding their elected member or whoever is locally responsible for development of their area...They blame "Pakistan" Punjabi and what not...

If people of Balochistan had realized that the lavish Lives of their Sardars is based on the Funds they get to be spent on the ordinary people of Balochistan..Balochistan hadn't been in such a mess...Same goes for all "Angry" areas of Pakistan Including FATA.

We are not Pakistanis at heart..we are selfish people who want to Milk the country and if we cant milk it we become enemies of state..

I had the opportunity of working with soviets and they were the most patriotic people i ever seen..Money was nothing for them..All they did was for the glory of soviet union....and look where they are..

In Pakistan one load shedding later,all our Patriotism goes in the gutter..Such is our weakness as "Pakistanis"..

And before anybody starts..15 years ago i got fed up of Stupidity of resident Pakistanis and left the country...In my opinion that's the better thing to do,if you are so fed up..Just go..Dont kill people..Dont blow yourself up, don't try to break Pakistan...

 

[haviZsultan]

will america exist till 2024?

Its wishful thinking if we are assuming America will not remain or will disappear. Though a lot of us may wish it (I do not wish for their democracy, ideals and culture of freedom to disappear though) it is not something we can never base our policies on. It would be a grave error. It is wiser to assume that US will remain for at least a 100-200 years until replaced with China or even then may have a great deal of power.

Gigawatt's post is more about 2012 US withdrawal. A residue of troops will remain till 2024 but they have bases here in Pakistan as well and anyone can be made to disappear anytime on their behest. So I believe that would be inconsequential largely.

Furthermore you should ignore Safriz. He is a biased member who looks down his nose at tribal people.

We are not Pakistanis at heart..we are selfish people who want to Milk the country and if we cant milk it we become enemies of state..

I had the opportunity of working with soviets and they were the most patriotic people i ever seen..Money was nothing for them..All they did was for the glory of soviet union....and look where they are..

In Pakistan one load shedding later,all our Patriotism goes in the gutter..Such is our weakness as "Pakistanis"..

And before anybody starts..15 years ago i got fed up of Stupidity of resident Pakistanis and left the country...In my opinion that's the better thing to do,if you are so fed up..Just go..Dont kill people..Dont blow yourself up, don't try to break Pakistan...

This part of the post was very good and I wished to thank you for it but for your negative outlook towards FATA. Let FATIAN's do the criticizing. I am a wannabe Pashtun with very little blood and don't do it myself because it may sound like after adopting their race I am trying to tell them what to do. Leave it Safriz. Chor dey. Nationalism can prevail if we start ensuring the movement isn't crushed each time it rises and pushed back to stage 1 again.

 

[Safriz]

Furthermore you should ignore Safriz. He is a biased member who looks down his nose at tribal people.

Actually i look down at all enemies of Pakistan..You haven't read my posts about BLA and Baloch insurgents..many Pro BLA bloggers and Facebookers have had a hard time trying to fend me off from their propaganda blogs/FB pages..
But since this thread was about FATA and tribals so i wrote comments about Anti Pakistan sentiments and activities among people of that area...

 

[Areesh]

No it was not ignored. You are quibbling on mere technicalities when I am addressing on the main point of the legality of Afghan claim on KPK. Keep quibbling.

Those are not mere technicalities. This is something you have claimed every time and failed to prove it. If is a very fundamental part of this discussion which you have chosen to ignore(for obvious reasons)and has just continued with your twists and turns to prove your point. Even @Armstrong wants to see you prove this BS but then again you have nothing to show anything here. A true Hindu right wing lunatic you are. They all are of such kind.

 

[Armstrong]

Right and obligations - meaning treaties and agreements. They devolved solely to India, not Pakistan. Please read carefully.

Membership of all international organizations together with the rights and obligations attaching to such membership will devolve solely upon the Dominion of India

I can't understand how any of the above could be misconstrued to refer to 'treaties' when it explicitly talks about the rights & obligations pertaining to the membership of International Organizations; I would assume that they are talking about the UN, the Commonwealth, the WB, the IMF etc. & not the Durand Line Treaty or any other treaty that British India may or may not have signed.

Yaar how can it be unsubstantiated if a book quotes it and a noted lawyer and historian again refers to it ? Surely the first edition came out in 1972 which explains the lack of an e-book. This is just denial on your part to accept a fact that undermines Pakistani claim on Kashmir.

Infact you would be surprised to know that Patel saab (patel saab had no emotional connection with Kashmir and he was a pragmatist unlike Nehru who was an idealist and had personal connection with Kashmir) was ready to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan if Jinnah agreed to relinquish his claim on Hyderabad and Junagadh. But jinnah was not ready for it. The mentality of both Jinnah and LAK was that they were confident that Kashmir would somehow come to Pakistan and hence they should not agree for a concession on Hyderabad.

Mr.Noorani quoted the same Mr.Patel's books or memoirs or whatever; I find opinions to be a very poor substitute for facts. I'm sure we are not so naive so as to accept that any such a proposition would have occurred without a proper working paper being given to the Mr.Jinnah & through to Pakistan or at the very least some sort of a meeting to have been held to discuss the fate of three units of British India. I gather that the absence of any such document (I'm not talking about a hardcover copy of the book), any such meeting with even the slightest whiff getting out to the public, follows that this may or may not happened & as such it is pure conjecture. But if we were to form our opinions on the opinions of others & take them to be gospel than I'm sure there is much that has been opinionated by others, that remains equally unsubstantiated, but that could be used in an equal capacity. But that would be a poor...poor show in fact-finding.

 

[Marwat Khan Lodhi]

We dont want to be with kp, we rather have our own province. We spit on the name kp and ghaffar khan and his anp clan.

You are not a Pakistani, neither you are a peshaweri, you are afghan troll. Staff can check your IP, it wont be of peshawer.

 

[Masterio92]

@ safriz damag satya gaya he kiya ....tribals ko pakistan se alag karne ka ...once u give the lost love,trust and respect to tribal peoples ,they will forget everything and start to kiss ur feet ......

Hmmm kiss the feet? Surely they will hug those who deserve to be.. they will kick off businesses across the country and globe .. as well as kick the arses too of those who deserve to be .. and tribals will step over the tails too of some if they even mean a naught

 

[user1]

In my humble opinion, some times, groups of people (clans, tribes, nations) do go to war among their own folk. It does not mean they become enemies forever. Their destinies may be shared by more than a small span of time when they are at conflict.

There is nothing wrong in having a conflict if the matter is of a principle and holds up to the moral standards of the realm. Nations have gone on war against each other, have divided themselves and then embraced again. Examples abound in our own age: Koreas, Yemens, Germanies, Chinas, etc.

In the past, US had a Civil War when South declared secession on the moral issue of slavery. In our tribal areas, the system of social control is based upon a 2 thousand year old Pashtun Code, which has been respected by sucessive governments of Pakistan in the past which is morally understandable. Their trans-durand line relationships have also been acknowledged and respected by their free movements across the border.

In return, Tribal people have also helped Pakistan when it needed them the most. In 1947, when British Commander-in-Chief declined to send forces to free Kashmir it was the tribals alongwith Gilgit and Hunza scouts. Punjabis didn't go to fight the Dogra and Indian army, neither did the Sindhis. The Kashmir (fulcrum of the empires) and Gilgit-Baltistan (our link to PRC and source of our vital rivers and dams) that we have today is due to the gallantry of these people. In 1960s, when Afghan army tried to annex the area, these people resisted the Pashtuns of Afghanistan and welcomed the Pakistan Army units which were mostly Punjabi. Then, during Afghan Jehad their co-operation was crucial to all the ISI operations which lead to the demise of USSR.

There may be some mischevious elements among them who are aligned with anti-state elements from across the border; there may be some people who convinced to follow the Pashtunwali code of Nanawatai (for the fugitives) or Badal (of the killings) and they do not want to compromise their moral Code; there may be some who are real religious nuts who think they are fighting an apostate army. But there are many more who are victims: they are victimised by TTP, they become collateral damage in drone attacks and Pakistan army's operations, they become innocent bystander victims when a planted bomb goes off. This is a collective punishment that they are getting for the crimes of the few. Their tribal maliks and religious leaders have been systematically eliminated by TTP, especially in the Waziristan region. Many of them had to abandon their homes and lands and flee to large cities like Karachi where they are forced to live in shanty town. I would say that these people are sacrificing theirselves for the people like us who have the liberty to point a finger at them and call them illiterate and backward.

On the flipside, their ancestral code may not be upto universal moral standards; probably they do not understand that their code of Asylum to fugitives is not as moral as it appears; that saving some criminals (for the sake of upholding the tradition) at the expense of misery to the countless is not what the religion says and is in direct clash with Pushtunwali Code of Imandari and Nang.

Solution will only come through dialogue and development, education and urbanisation. They are a part of us and are vital to our cordial and long-term relationship with Afghanistan (especially, their Pashtuns that will always have a Lion's share in any governemnt) and Central Asian Republics. Lastly, we do not want that Pashtunistan nuisance to start all over again by alienating these people.