Pakistan’s maritime compulsions

[wakapdf]

All well and good in theory, how are we going to finance this expansion? Let us assume that we suddenly strike it rich, who is going to sell us modern naval vessels, especially matching the INS aircraft carriers Vikrant & Vikramaditya? Let us not forget we would also need aircrafts to equip these ships!

Hon. Fatman17 has correctly pointed out that PN planners have to find ways for optimum utilization of the limited resources that can be spared for the Navy. Submarines, Maritime Patrol aircrafts and land based missile firing JF-17 appear to be the best bet.

Worry about their destroyers and cruisers first. If we can dominate them, they wont dare bring their carriers forward. Even if they do, we can send 2 jf17s to scare them off.... As things are about to kick-off in our backdoor and nations piling up their naval fleets nearby (think oil lanes), we need to gear up to properly defend ourselves against any misadventure. A well armed frigate can match a cruiser or destroyer any day. Thus we need surface ships badly... We can try approaching Russia or China for modern naval vessels or focus on building our own...

 

[kurup]

Worry about their destroyers and cruisers first. If we can dominate them, they wont dare bring their carriers forward. Even if they do, we can send 2 jf17s to scare them off.... As things are about to kick-off in our backdoor and nations piling up their naval fleets nearby (think oil lanes), we need to gear up to properly defend ourselves against any misadventure. A well armed frigate can match a cruiser or destroyer any day. Thus we need surface ships badly... We can try approaching Russia or China for modern naval vessels or focus on building our own...

What you are forgetting is these AC carry dozens of fighters also .
Getting ships from Russia will be difficult for pakistan due to India factor.

 

[Penguin]

why? you guys were getting 4 additional free ships, how did that deal go sour?

Who said that that deal went sour? Realize any OHPs will have to come from the active USN fleet: there is no stock of decommed OHPs. So, you see a pair of ships retire per year and US has other nations to equip also e.g. Taiwan (which has expressed interest in 8 OHPs to replace the aging Knox class ships)

 

[Penguin]

Pakistan-US relations ... Well , OHP frigates are of little use in combat operations since most of their equipment are downgraded or stripped ...

Balony! The only thing that is gong is a functional Mk13 launcher (due to USN retiring SM1 missiles). So long as employed in ASW, they do fine. Rack mounted Harpoon (or C802) can easily be backfitted, restoring full ASuW capability in a heart beat. Only issue would be strengtheining AAW capability, for which the simplest solution may be a 21-round RAM launcher, or - alternatively - a single 8 round Mk41. New canisters allow quadpacking of new munitions in this launcher e.g. the more capable RAM block 2, Nulka decoys etc (aside from ESSM). With VL RAM block 2, you get performance improvement over RAM, without the need to reinstall a STIR or other target illumination radar.

 

[wakapdf]

What you are forgetting is these AC carry dozens of fighters also .
Getting ships from Russia will be difficult for pakistan due to India factor.

What you are forgetting is that it takes one anti-ship missile to drown that carrier containing dozens of fighters. Russia's ship industry is growing and its looking for money to expand further. It shouldnt be a problem convincing them. Now the question is: Is India really a factor? I mean you guys did let Russia down by choosing Rafael over Russian aircraft. You also seem to be sliding towards the American camp. Like i said, it wouldnt be a problem...

 

[kurup]

What you are forgetting is that it takes one anti-ship missile to drown that carrier containing dozens of fighters. Russia's ship industry is growing and its looking for money to expand further. It shouldnt be a problem convincing them. Now the question is: Is India really a factor? I mean you guys did let Russia down by choosing Rafael over Russian aircraft. You also seem to be sliding towards the American camp. Like i said, it wouldnt be a problem...

If it was that simple to drown an AC the countries like US , China , france , India , Russia wouldnot be investing in it.

In addition to CBG protecting it , an AC also has their own defensive mechanisms.

Russia is still India's biggest partner and still buys weapons from Russia larger than pakistan's defence budget .

 

[Penguin]

If it was that simple to drown an AC the countries like US , China , france , India , Russia wouldnot be investing in it.

In addition to CBG protecting it , an AC also has their own defensive mechanisms.

Russia is still India's biggest partner and still buys weapons from Russia larger than pakistan's defence budget .

Of course, but it is also a far larger country, with a need to 'cover' a far larger area with armed forces. India cannot afford to focus solely on Pakistan, it needs to take China into account as well as other countries in the region into account. It cannot - for example - ignore that most of India could be touched by Iranian ballistic missiles. It also cannot ignore that its bordering seas see some of the heaviest commercial shipping on the globe.

 

[kurup]

^^^ agree with all you said but didn't understood the context .

 

[The Aryan Prince]

nice ranges

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

IN doesn't huve to do much,simply fly swarms of sukhois within 290kms of karachi and gwadar and fire away salvoes of brahmos.PN;s greatest weakness is strong air defence without which surface ships are near useless.

 

[Abingdonboy]

''To be frank'' India should take care of its poor before dreaming of building a blue-water navy. Investing in blue water navy for India is a waste of resources. Resources that can feed and provide sanitation to its poor population... DONT EVEN TRY TO TROLL!

Pakistan military needs to make a massive investment and progress in the naval sector. Navy is the life-line of this country that ensures a flow of our resources through sea

"to be frank" this is BS and Pakistan's "get out of jail free card". India spends LESS as a proportion of GDP than Pakistan so everything you are saying about India spending on its poor or not doing goes doubly or three times as much for Pakistan. Additionally India is cutting poverty at a rate only China can really match and poverty will be within acceptable limits within most of our lifetimes within India however by all accounts poverty is increasing in Pakistan.

 

[arp2041]

All well and good in theory, how are we going to finance this expansion? Let us assume that we suddenly strike it rich, who is going to sell us modern naval vessels, especially matching the INS aircraft carriers Vikrant & Vikramaditya? Let us not forget we would also need aircrafts to equip these ships!

Hon. Fatman17 has correctly pointed out that PN planners have to find ways for optimum utilization of the limited resources that can be spared for the Navy. Submarines, Maritime Patrol aircrafts and land based missile firing JF-17 appear to be the best bet.

Sir, i have a query, yes IN is inducting massive no. of ships in it's fleet to become a credible blue water navy & to counter that PN can very well induct more subs with AIPs in it's fleet but isn't PN downplaying another threat that IN pose to PN - IN's Air Arm?? Acc. to former CONS of India, IN will have as much as 500 aircraft in it's inventory by 2022 with atleast 100 fighters, now that can easily rival any smaller AFs of the world, the main threat which IN's air arm pose is it's fighters with plans to induct all 4+ gen ac such as mig-29ks, nlca, mmrca. So what plans PN has to counter this??

 

[wakapdf]

"to be frank" this is BS and Pakistan's "get out of jail free card". India spends LESS as a proportion of GDP than Pakistan so everything you are saying about India spending on its poor or not doing goes doubly or three times as much for Pakistan. Additionally India is cutting poverty at a rate only China can really match and poverty will be within acceptable limits within most of our lifetimes within India however by all accounts poverty is increasing in Pakistan.

I agree... I was replying to a troll earlier. Its true that poverty is rising in Pakistan, but it has a lot to do with bad governance. Institutions will deliver as soon as new good government comes into power. You have to take into account, the massive buildup of IN. The west thinks that they are setting India up against China, but there is a big chance that all those procurements will be pitted against us. Our navy is a joke right now. In the event of war, I see India severely bombarding karachi and blocking up our supplies... I know my use of words was a little harsh, for that, i apologize

 

[niaz]

Sir, i have a query, yes IN is inducting massive no. of ships in it's fleet to become a credible blue water navy & to counter that PN can very well induct more subs with AIPs in it's fleet but isn't PN downplaying another threat that IN pose to PN - IN's Air Arm?? Acc. to former CONS of India, IN will have as much as 500 aircraft in it's inventory by 2022 with atleast 100 fighters, now that can easily rival any smaller AFs of the world, the main threat which IN's air arm pose is it's fighters with plans to induct all 4+ gen ac such as mig-29ks, nlca, mmrca. So what plans PN has to counter this??

Pakistan & India have a long land border and Pakistan is not a very wide country. Indian land based aircrafts can reach most of the Pakistan’s cities therefore India does not necessarily need naval aircrafts to attack Pakistani targets.

Naval Air Arm and aircraft carriers are a must for projecting power far beyond the land mass. For example IN carrier borne aircraft can theoretically bomb Aden, Durban, Singapore or even New Zealand, something beyond the capability of a navy without aircraft carriers. As far Pakistan is concerned, it hardly matters if the attackers come from the Arabian Sea or from the bases in Kutch? Main danger the IN air arm poses is to the PN surface fleet.

Submarine is the original stealth weapon and about half a dozen modern hunter killer submarines with AIP system would pose a serious threat to IN naval vessels within Pakistan’s economic zone especially when aided by MR Aircrafts armed with Harpoon anti-ship missiles.

No denying that fact that Pakistan can’t match 100 Indian naval fighters, but a couple of land based squadrons of JF-17 armed with sea skimming anti-ship missile would provide a decent enough deterrent to any surface vessel within a 100 mile of shoreline and a naval fighter is a dead duck if the carrier is destroyed.

To have credible deterrent, PN should have at least 6 P-3C’s, 6 modern submarines (we have only 3 as of now) and about 36 JF-17 armed with modern anti-ship missiles in place of about a dozen obsolete Mirages currently in PN’s inventory.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Probably you have not read about the world war II naval wars.............and don't come back with, "This is 2012...modern ACC are much more advanced".......

So are modern anti ship weapons and naval warfare techniques. In a war you don't have to kill a soldier or his machine, you just have to render them incapable to carry on the fight..

If it was that simple to drown an AC the countries like US , China , france , India , Russia wouldnot be investing in it.

In addition to CBG protecting it , an AC also has their own defensive mechanisms.

Russia is still India's biggest partner and still buys weapons from Russia larger than pakistan's defence budget .