Pakistan not responsible for failure in Afghanistan: McCain

[New World]

We have weak systems, even you can get a Pakistani passport if you the right amount of cash. Cannot blame us for that, can ya?

Ironically, the US could just as easily have targeted him in Iran or Afghanistan. What was the particular reason of targeting him in Pakistan........that is if he was targeted by the US at all!

the reason for which he was killed in Pakistan was the NSG Application of Pakistan and not to allow Pakistan to cozy with European countries with upcoming arm contracts..

 

[Joe Shearer]

I really do not understand the mind-set of the People of Afghanistan. From last several decades (even before 1950) Afghanistan was very unstable, economically weak country, poorest infrastructure, no defense , no university , poor health care facility, living in caves, Tribes were busy fighting each other like today. When Russian came in 80's, it was revealed that they cannot defend themselves. Millions of Afghani Rushed to Pakistan (Country whose independence opposed by Afghanistan) for Aid. WHY? USA provided the weapon through Pakistan. Anyone have better plan than this? Pakistan should have closed it's borders and let millions of Afghani die? This is what Afghani people want? If people of Afghanistan were any Talented, they must have shown their strength even before Russian Arrival. Charlie Wilson. Russian Left, tribes start fighting each other again. Millions of Afghani were welcomed in Pakistan Like families. Living Peacefully, doing business, including the Karzai (domestic enemy). Two Afghani cannot sit together to resolve their own dispute, but sure they will sit together to blame Pakistan. Blaming Pakistan for the failures of Afghanistan is not going to work. Stop acting like Afghanistan was like Japan, USA and Germany before this war, it was a ruined land like today. People of Afghanistan need to take matter in their own hand. Their future is with other Afghani Nationals only, as no one is going to resolve their internal disputes.

I can easily bet , Afghani didn't prosper their country in the Last Century and they will not do it in the next century . They like to fight each other and blame others , but message to flourish their country , seems to them other planet talks.

@Arsalan

I understand that Indians and their point of view about Afghanistan irritate and exasperate many Pakistanis. Sometimes, very rarely, but it happens, there is something about a glib generalisation made about Afghanistan by others which cannot fail to irritate and exasperate - who else? Afghans themselves? Please see the reference in red above - the rest is not fit for the rubbish bin - and the passage below.


According to Samady (2001), by 1950 there were 368 primary, secondary and vocational schools, and one teacher training school with a total of 95,300 students. The enrollment of children in primary education was 6% of the corresponding age (6 through 12) in an estimated population of 11 million people. In 1947, Kabul University was formally established. Three years later, the departments of theology, agriculture, and economics were founded.

 

[Musafir117]

His WHAT?



Now THAT is below the belt.

Very shrewdly argued, but a very low blow.



GHQ needs to detoxify its collective 'brain'. That is the most polite expression I can find for the situation described by you.

When Indian stop prxy in Afghanistan we will think about your advice.

 

[Joe Shearer]

When Indian stop prxy in Afghanistan we will think about your advice.

No advice. There is nothing anyone can tell you. After all, you are the masters of the universe.

 

[somebozo]

I for one think that Afghans would be naive to put all their dirty laundry in the GHQ's basket, since issues like corruption, nepotism are not the creations of the GHQ but internal Afghan problems. Furthermore issues such as cross border terrorism, suicide bombings, beheading etc are of course done via GHQ proxies and there is no doubt where they get their trainings, funding and logistics.

As for what Senator John McCain statement's I see it more a reflection of US internal politics aka democrats vs republicans than GHQ's policies vis-a-vis Afghanistan.

PS : Mullah Mansoor was found in Baluchistan, Mullah Omar was treated in Karachi and current Tali head honcho is in Quetta and not in the backyard of Obama.


/Peace

https://defence.pk/threads/iran-covertly-recruits-afghan-shias-to-fight-in-syria.437336/


Further the article proves that Afghans have an addiction to fighting for money aka war bounty..it is very much their national industry for centuries...and as such it is not Pakistan which has to be blamed every time a terror attack strike Afghanistan or Afghan Taliban gets aided..

 

[.]

I think I read a few posts here which say that Taliban Leaders etc are found living in Quetta Pakistan etc,As we all know Osama bin laden was also found in Pakistan.
Everyone knows that TTP and BLA are because of the proxy war in the Region Funded by our Neighbor who already broke my country in two after it got its A$$ whooped in the 1965 war with Pakistan
Planning Mukhti Bahni Anti-state terrorist activities against Pakistan and Intervened in a countries Internal civil war India has done that since ages continues to do so secretly.
So if Afghanistani Taliban never had any problems with Pakistan and our army I wouldn't be surprised if the army doesn't take actions against them,What's the big problem if Taliban leaders occasionally cross into Pakistan and are found here,after all it is the world that is saying that the Taliban are Essential to the peace talks.
If Afghans think that sitting on fourms and saying that Taliban should be Exterminated they are just dreaming...
When Afghanis Realize that India is Just playing them against Pakistan and they would get nothing out of it.
Only one that has helped afghanistanis truly are Pakistani,And if we get the chance I hope our Government continues to do so.

My question is: Why dun afghans make some good hospitals in Afghanistan???

You won't find them in Pakistani soil for sure.

They don't need that,What happened recently ? Did they ask India for hospitals or Pakistans to treat their wounded soldiers in the recent border clash?
They don't need hospitals go to Lady Reeding Hospital in Peshawar you will get a fine history of treatment of Afghanistanis.

 

[Arsalan]

It is precisely that, dear Arsalan, a porous border which CANNOT be made impenetrable. Those who are suggesting it are people who haven't even looked at natural conditions on these borders. The idea is laughable. Pakistan would, as you have pointed out, moved heaven and earth to keep out terrorists.

Fencing the border IS NOT POSSIBLE.

I can only suggest, with a sense of frustration and helplessness, a layered defence, heavily dependent on remote sensing mechanisms, both static and mobile (drones included), mines at some choke-points (I say this knowing it is politically incorrect, and believing that allowing kids and schools to be at risk is even more incorrect), very small, very mobile patrols sweeping at random intervals, fixed camps at the points where mountain passes debouch on to pathways and small roads, and an intensive road-building programme.

This sounds unreal, but if somebody has a better idea, I'd love to hear about it.

I wont say impossible but that sure is a lot difficult, bordering impossible i would say. Still, the point is that this is no excuse for opposing others to try. Plus if the porous border is to be blamed for ISI intervening in Afghanistan that same border can be cited as an explanation of Afghan Taliban inside Pakistan.

The problem here is not how to contain the border but to accept that the problem is on both side of the border and it will be both Pakistan and Afghanistan who will have to resolve these issues and differences. We have had our differences with Northern alliance previously but there is no reason these issues cannot be settled. We all know very well how the global alliances shift with changing interests. A peaceful region is in interest of both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The non-state actors responsible of creating unrest have safe havens in Afghanistan, the ones responsible for unrest in Afghanistan are accused to be hiding and being funded by Pakistan. We can work together, eliminate the problem and everyone can go home happy. It is a win win for the whole regions, in fact the world however failure to do so is a loss of Afghanistan and Pakistan mainly! WE NEED TO CLEAN UP THIS MESS.

We are on the same page as far as the difficulties arising out of ethnic differences (showing up as differences between the Northern Alliance and the former Mujahedin, later to regroup themselves under different leadership as Taliban). However, I urge you and every other REASONABLE Pakistani analyst to keep in mind that the Indian intelligence services are of an entirely different kind and composition, and outlook, even, than your own.

Most of the time Pakistanis tend to take the known capability of their own intelligence services, and their activities, and extrapolate them onto Indian parallels - which really don't exist.

Please note that I am not denying the existence of a desire to act in a certain way, among Indian decision makers. I am doubting their capability.

[[I will continue on this in a few minutes after a medicine-administration break. Please bear with me.]]

Sir money talks and this wont be the first time we see it happening. Anyone Pakistani who denies that India have far more reach in the international world in living in delusion. I am not. I understand and admit the number of areas where we seriously lag behind and frankly, i feel that in most of these there is actually no reason to compete to begin with. Perhaps it have something to do with Indian relations with central Asian states (people from where form bulk of Norther Alliance) so whatever but yes there is that influence and a number of things point in that direction.

Here I would like to clarify something: my intention was to point out that India simply does not have that nuanced, measured and phlegmatic approach towards either Pakistan or Afghanistan or the confluence of the two policies that some Pakistanis imagine. My remark was half-amused, half-frustrated; do you really think we are such terrifying figures out of some dark, oriental Fu Manchu kind of conspiracy?

I don't, even if a do, i will blame myself for creating the situation in which you were able to act so freely damaging my interests. At the end of the day, I have to share my burden of responsibility.

LOL.

C'mon, champ, I know you know what I'm saying, and of course it cuts both ways.

I Do, just was pointing out how it works both ways and it was not for you but for other members reading the conversation. I know you understand how it words both ways!

OK, all this emanates primarily from the ground reality that people cannot vanish. But to an additional extent, the dozens of interviewers and correspondents who have met the Taliban leadership within Pakistan is a convincing counter-argument to an Indian not determined to maintain a judicial weighment of all information and evidence. You are right, even Homer nods, even the most well-intentioned of us has a moment or two of disillusionment.

Perhaps our individual circumstances at a given point of time might have something to do with it. At this moment, to see anything generous and open-hearted in the situation is difficult. When Alexander ordered the execution of his father's general, Parmenion, the executioner said to the unsuspecting general,"The whole earth smells of corruption."

It is sad but true. That is the reason that both Afghanistan and Pakistan are the ones who will have to step up to resolve the differences and come to some sorts of solution. That is not difficult at all, there is no much in common. The only problem is that we are both labeling our actions as reactions. Sadly we are only fooling ourselves by doing so. It is time for both to accept the harsh realities and if these two countries decide to make peace and to progress together any amount of foreign influence wont be able to do much damage.

Such discussions have happened many times in the past, when we tell them what we want the delegations or Afghan general present at the time agree to what we are saying but when they go back to Kabul they still act on the opposite, clearly meaning that there is an outside influence in Afghanistan.

Such a solution can only work if there is a legitimate, mature government in Afghanistan not a puppet regime that changes color two days later

Afghanistan is actually not really acting as a state but a combination of various tribes and ethnicities with no real rule of law. This have been the case for years. So if those Afghan generals are not able to deliver on there promises it is most probable partly due to some influence but mainly because they are really not able to ascertain there authority. We say that happen with politicians as well.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I wont say impossible but that sure is a lot difficult, bordering impossible i would say. Still, the point is that this is no excuse for opposing others to try. Plus if the porous border is to be blamed for ISI intervening in Afghanistan that same border can be cited as an explanation of Afghan Taliban inside Pakistan.

The problem here is not how to contain the border but to accept that the problem is on both side of the border and it will be both Pakistan and Afghanistan who will have to resolve these issues and differences. We have had our differences with Northern alliance previously but there is no reason these issues cannot be settled. We all know very well how the global alliances shift with changing interests. A peaceful region is in interest of both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The non-state actors responsible of creating unrest have safe havens in Afghanistan, the ones responsible for unrest in Afghanistan are accused to be hiding and being funded by Pakistan. We can work together, eliminate the problem and everyone can go home happy. It is a win win for the whole regions, in fact the world however failure to do so is a loss of Afghanistan and Pakistan mainly! WE NEED TO CLEAN UP THIS MESS.


Sir money talks and this wont be the first time we see it happening. Anyone Pakistani who denies that India have far more reach in the international world in living in delusion. I am not. I understand and admit the number of areas where we seriously lag behind and frankly, i feel that in most of these there is actually no reason to compete to begin with. Perhaps it have something to do with Indian relations with central Asian states (people from where form bulk of Norther Alliance) so whatever but yes there is that influence and a number of things point in that direction.


I don't, even if a do, i will blame myself for creating the situation in which you were able to act so freely damaging my interests. At the end of the day, I have to share my burden of responsibility.



I Do, just was pointing out how it works both ways and it was not for you but for other members reading the conversation. I know you understand how it words both ways!


It is sad but true. That is the reason that both Afghanistan and Pakistan are the ones who will have to step up to resolve the differences and come to some sorts of solution. That is not difficult at all, there is no much in common. The only problem is that we are both labeling our actions as reactions. Sadly we are only fooling ourselves by doing so. It is time for both to accept the harsh realities and if these two countries decide to make peace and to progress together any amount of foreign influence wont be able to do much damage.


Afghanistan is actually not really acting as a state but a combination of various tribes and ethnicities with no real rule of law. This have been the case for years. So if those Afghan generals are not able to deliver on there promises it is most probable partly due to some influence but mainly because they are really not able to ascertain there authority. We say that happen with politicians as well.

I have always been impressed by the sheer balance and clarity of your posts, and every successive encounter confirms this. It is just as you say, Maestro.

 

[Arsalan]

Kudos to you for keeping your responses civil and respectful, even we both seem to disagree on certain argumentation.

Ok on topic, what kind of solution do you have stopping this bad blood between us? For me it is very simple, this cycle will only stop when both AF-PAK address each other's genuine grievances and to verify all these steps via a neutral body such as Turkey.

Make sense ?

What can make more sense than this?
It looks like a perfectly logical solution. The sad part is related to the lack of willingness to go down that road. Also a very important point here would be to address the fact that Afghanistan would have to resolve the differences within its own people as well so that they country can act as one unit and both Afghanistan and Pakistan can resolve there issues.

Look it is so simple and yet we fail to grasp this. There is this school of thought which says that religion and race is the base of international friendships and alliances (they may use the GCC as an example), there is another stating that the regional proximity and geography is what forms the base of true friendship and alliance and then there is the one which says that only national interests is the reason behind all those alliances and friendships. Isn't that so? Dont you think that different group of people have these different views right? I mean i always hear one of these reasons. The funny part is that Pakistan and Afghanistan fulfill all of these requirements. They can and must be friends accordingly to any one of these philosophies! We share a religious background, we are are neighbors and share the Pushtun ethnicity and most importantly, a peaceful region is in the national interest on both of us. I wonder why is it so that we are still not able to get over the difference of the Afghan civil war and move on for a prosperous future together. Is it lack of will and commitment or lack of vision that is responsible for lack of honesty towards this cause.

I have always been impressed by the sheer balance and clarity of your posts, and every successive encounter confirms this. It is just as you say, Maestro.

Thanks for the appreciation. Just trying to do my part. MAYBE some one persona will listen and understand to what i am trying to say and can contribute something positive. Sir we may have back stabbed you, you may have deceived us. We may not be friends but the least we should so is stop being enemies. That would be good for everyone involved. The talks of how Pakistan could liberate Kashmir or who India can wipe out Pakistan are good for the spicy even news but for a serious discussion both are just delusions.
The first step towards improvement of relations, Pak-India or Pak-Afghanistan will be to admit to our mistakes and vow not to repeat them in future. Once that is done, there wont be much to disagree about.

 

[Bratva]

Ok that was more an emotional response to my arguments than one based on objectivity

Tali foot soldiers are taken out in droves and if any Talis leadership crosses over to AF they are taken out in a matter of hours if not days, the issue is that the command and control are in Pakistan.

The recent Shadow governor of Taliban. Was he killed in Pakistan ? The command and control of Taliban is also in Qatar from which they collect funds through saudia & bahrain & UAE. But your buck always stops at GHQ. WOnder when you gonna drop this inherent biaseness of yours

 

[Arsalan]

@Arsalan

I understand that Indians and their point of view about Afghanistan irritate and exasperate many Pakistanis. Sometimes, very rarely, but it happens, there is something about a glib generalisation made about Afghanistan by others which cannot fail to irritate and exasperate - who else? Afghans themselves? Please see the reference in red above - the rest is not fit for the rubbish bin - and the passage below.


According to Samady (2001), by 1950 there were 368 primary, secondary and vocational schools, and one teacher training school with a total of 95,300 students. The enrollment of children in primary education was 6% of the corresponding age (6 through 12) in an estimated population of 11 million people. In 1947, Kabul University was formally established. Three years later, the departments of theology, agriculture, and economics were founded.

I agree with your observation about the our behavior related to Afghan-India relations but frankly i think what actually irritate us Pakistanis is how some Indian members will try to own Afghanistan and Afghans as there own. The fact is that there always were number of tribes fighting among themselves in Afghanistan. Then there were two major forces, the Taliban and the Norther Alliance. During the civil war Pakistan had the back of Taliban and India engaging in sorts of a proxy war (as we usually do) were more close to norther alliance. The Taliban won, our side won and our interest in the region were protected. The situation changed post 2001. The norther alliance with backing of US forces fought against Taliban and defeated them to some extent gaining some control of the center. Now it is the Indian friends in power so there interests in the region are protected and we are at a loss. What Pakistanis SHOULD accept is that fact that we actually didn't did much for Afghanistan, the country, when our friendly forces were in power. Indians did things that are beneficial for the country when there friendly norther alliance are in power. So the support we get from public following our friends will be lesser then the support India would get from the public that follow there friends. The amount of that public support is something that keeps the balance from shifting hugely in favor of India.

I am sorry i was not completely able to grasp the point related to internal weakness of Afghanistan but yes they were there and unfortunately most of them still are there.

There however one only little statement, a very interesting one, in the post your quoted. I would like to highlight that here:

Two Afghani cannot sit together to resolve their own dispute, but sure they will sit together to blame Pakistan

This is part of the same problem that we are discussing here and this too needs to be addressed if things are to change for better.

 

[haviZsultan]

Very good question.

Dostum has accepted the Afghan constitution and does not go around blowing up schools and murder police.
If the Talis accept the Afghan constitution and want to live in peace, they are welcome. Doors are open.

They can take part in elections, if they win, they may as well rule Afghanistan.

Dostum and the lion of Panjshir were some of the warlords that turned Afghanistan into a living hell before the Taliban arrived. Are you sure its good to support them?

 

[Abu Insaf]

افغانی اپنی پیدائش کو پاکستانی جنرلز کے کھاتے میں نہ ڈال سکنے پر خود کو بہت بےبس مجبور محسوس کرتے ہیں

 

[BetterPakistan]

Everyone here knows that it is Afghanistan failure and Pakistan has nothing to do with it. TTP terrorists enter's Pakistan from Afghanistan to conduct terrorism activities. APS terrorits and Bacha Khan terrorists both entered in Pakistan from Afghanistan. TTP chief group is living in afghanistan under kabul protection, everyone knows it. Afghanistan's crap forces cannot deal with them and blaming others for their failure?

 

[Super Falcon]

I think time to take USA out of Afghanistan business do whatever suits us