Pakistan (non nuclear)plan to counter cold start

[django]

"On learning that, Lt. Gen. Harbakash Singh and the corps commander drove in a Jonga (Nissan P60 Jeep) to the battlefront. Army commander found that the enemy (PAF) air attack had created a havoc on G.T. Road. (Indian) Vehicles were burning and several vehicles of 15 Division abandoned on the road, the drivers having run away, leaving some of the engines still running. Maj. Gen. Niranjan Prasad was hiding in a recently irrigated sugar cane field. As described by Harabakash Singh: "He (Prasad) came out to receive us, with his boots covered with wet mud. He had no head cover, nor was he wearing any badges of his rank. He had stubble on his face, not having shaved." Seeing him in such a stage, Harbakhash Singh asked him: "Whether he was the General Officer commanding a division or a coolie? Why had he removed badges of rank and not shaved? Niranjan Prasad had no answer."

I guess Gen Prasad was caught with his pants down

 

[Mentee]

defensive offense is the term i used.
First allow enemy to come to you, as defense is easier. Enemy will suffer loses. Then launch offensive attacks.

@MastanKhan sir, does this tactic look promising vis a vis tank battle ?

I guess Gen Prasad was caught with his pants down

To fight a war , the adversary needs to be 7 times smaller so , that Indians could boast about it till kingdoms come. Alas! The 7 times bigger bully kid got bullied every time by------- each time that bully lost some of its "vital organs" to that lil skinny green kid , be it 47, 65 or 99 but, hey who cares when i managed to stole that green kids lunch box lying some 2000 km away with the help of another kid , I must be stronk

 

[The SC]

One of the responses to the CSD would be a dedicated brigade or division with efficient antitank weapons with up to 5km range, let's say it will have 5000 as a brigade or 15 000 men as a division, that is 3 brigades of 5000 men with 5000 antitank missiles each, all hiding in well planified positions.. how many tanks and armored personnel carriers can India field for the CSD?
Add to this a cover by long range rockets, artillery, short and medium range mobile air defences and helicopters, drones and fighters air cover.. not to mention Pakistan's own armoured divisions/brigades that will divert the attention from these dedicated tank killer brigades..

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan sir, does this tactic look promising vis a vis tank battle ?


To fight a war , the adversary needs to be 7 times smaller so , that Indians could boast about it till kingdoms come. Alas! The 7 times bigger bully kid got bullied every time by------- each time that bully lost some of its "vital organs" to that lil skinny green kid , be it 47, 65 or 99 but, hey who cares when i managed to stole that green kids lunch box lying some 2000 km away with the help of another kid , I must be stronk

Hi,

No---this tactic does not work---because DEFENSE is based on a defeatist mentality---what if you fail.

Speed and strike---.

Pak military during Mushy's time had its own cold start---. There were areas where the opponent army could not move in in large numbers for 24 plus hours---Mushy had a plan to take over those areas at a lightening speed in a Blitzkrieg type attack---a ' blitzableiter '.

But the problem was Paf---you people have no clue how Pakistan has been sabotaged by the generals of the Paf---.

Oh---by the way---I was right about General Kiyani----it is all coming out now.

 

[xyxmt]

Pakistan has very few 4th generation fighters only 156-158 where as India has 390 4th generation jets all but 3 sqds deployed on Pakistan front.

Similarly Pakistan armoured force is below par too as they have only around 2050 tanks in service.
From 1975 onwards it acquired 825 Type 59, Type-59s bought prior to that are too old.
It also acquired in the same period 300 Type-69, 285 Type-85, 330 MBT-2000, 320 T-80.

Half of Pakistan Navy frigates are also around 40 year old.

So you never heard our one to ten superiority which is endorsed by western scientists after extensive research

 

[ziaulislam]

Pakistan has very few 4th generation fighters only 156-158 where as India has 390 4th generation jets all but 3 sqds deployed on Pakistan front.

Similarly Pakistan armoured force is below par too as they have only around 2050 tanks in service.
From 1975 onwards it acquired 825 Type 59, Type-59s bought prior to that are too old.
It also acquired in the same period 300 Type-69, 285 Type-85, 330 MBT-2000, 320 T-80.

Half of Pakistan Navy frigates are also around 40 year old.

apparently you have no idea what cold start means
it means total dominance which you cant achieve by having twice the numbers of planes and tanks(though you stat are wrong there 500 al zarrar upgrade is basically a modern tank)
similar india has fewer artillery with no self propelled heavy artillery at all, artillery is much important than tanks

china has a more chance to initiate cold start doctorine on india(5-6X the numbers) than india 2-3x times the no with respect to pakistan

 

[aryadravida_exmuslim]

Good article, though not valid anymore since years have passed.
But what a dumb thread so far.

Hi,

No---this tactic does not work---because DEFENSE is based on a defeatist mentality---what if you fail.

Speed and strike---.

Pak military during Mushy's time had its own cold start---. There were areas where the opponent army could not move in in large numbers for 24 plus hours---Mushy had a plan to take over those areas at a lightening speed in a Blitzkrieg type attack---a ' blitzableiter '.

But the problem was Paf---you people have no clue how Pakistan has been sabotaged by the generals of the Paf---.

Oh---by the way---I was right about General Kiyani----it is all coming out now.

Well, there are cases where defense works very well. It's not always a defeatist mentality.

And do you mean JF17 induction by sabotage?

 

[Vengeful One]

don't twist facts it was clearly said in the ceato and cento US will not help Pakistan in case of was war with india
Now tell me why india ran to UN??

Pakistan joined SEATO & CENTO hoping that US will intervene in it's favour but then started crying as no such direct intervention came.

there is a hell of difference b/w tank and jeep of GOC the truth is that your GOC ran from the battle

There is he'll of difference between capturing a heavily armed tank and an unarmed light jeep, anyways here is the captured tank of a Pakistani armoured regiment commander:

apparently you have no idea what cold start means
it means total dominance which you cant achieve by having twice the numbers of planes and tanks(though you stat are wrong there 500 al zarrar upgrade is basically a modern tank)
similar india has fewer artillery with no self propelled heavy artillery at all, artillery is much important than tanks

china has a more chance to initiate cold start doctorine on india(5-6X the numbers) than india 2-3x times the no with respect to pakistan

Al zarrar numbers are included in The Type 59 totals.

Also China cannot deploy large number of troops in Tibet due to severe logistical problems.

 

[MastanKhan]

Pakistan joined SEATO & CENTO hoping that US will intervene in it's favour but then started crying as no such direct intervention came.

There is he'll of difference between capturing a heavily armed tank and an unarmed light jeep, anyways here is the captured tank of a Pakistani armoured regiment commander:

Al zarrar numbers are included in The Type 59 totals.

Also China cannot deploy large number of troops in Tibet due to severe logistical problems.

Hi,

Wasn't this taken taken in indian territory.

 

[Vengeful One]

Hi,

Wasn't this taken taken in indian territory.

AFAIK It's somewhere along Punjab border.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

To me, it should not just to stop troops coming from 7-8 points extensively but to have forces ready to open offence on other various points too to give them same puzzling situation to enemy.

That would convert the offensive attack in defensive strategy and enemy would loose its further grip and would be diverted.

All Pak needs is a capable major, like in 65/71, at each front India opens (land/air), and it's a done deal. I think ~3K officers are commissioned each year, and with say ~20 yrs of average service, the probability is in favor of Pak!!!

*Indian chief vs a Pak major (65, Lahore), entire Indian division supported by air/artillery/armored against a major (71, Hili, East Pak), Indian air thrust vs a major on Sabr (65).

One of the responses to the CSD would be a dedicated brigade or division with efficient antitank weapons with up to 5km range, let's say it will have 5000 as a brigade or 15 000 men as a division, that is 3 brigades of 5000 men with 5000 antitank missiles each, all hiding in well planified positions.. how many tanks and armored personnel carriers can India field for the CSD?
Add to this a cover by long range rockets, artillery, short and medium range mobile air defences and helicopter, drones and fighters air cover.. not to mention Pakistan's own armoured divisions/brigades that will divert the attention from these dedicated tank killer brigades..

Even ragtag Hizbullah stopped Israeli armored with smuggled Iranian weapons. I think they took out ~60 tanks, and that's enough for the Israelis...

 

[The SC]

All Pak needs is a capable major, like in 65/71, at each front India opens (land/air), and it's a done deal. I think ~3K officers are commissioned each year, and with say ~20 yrs of average service, the probability is in favor of Pak!!!

*Indian chief vs a Pak major (65, Lahore), entire Indian division supported by air/artillery/armored against a major (71, Hili, East Pak), Indian air thrust vs a major on Sabr (65).


Even ragtag Hizbullah stopped Israeli armored with smuggled Iranian weapons. I think they took out ~60 tanks, and that's enough for the Israelis...

The Egyptias took out more than 400 Usraeli tanks with the Sagger antitank missile in the 1973 war, on the first 72 ours of the conflict..

 

[Motiur Rehman]

to counter Indian CSD Pak armed forces may take following steps:

1. Secure its national / strategic assets, ie, all sea port, mineral reserve, CPEC, etc.
2. Intelligence and diplomatic operation both in peace and war.
3. Joint offensive force to destroy indian Centre of Gravity in right time and space.
4. Secure SLOC and maritime zone along with air space and land border.
5. Increasing arms production alomg with adequate ammunition reserve.
6. Formations earmarked for countering CSD must adopt new tactics and equipments.
7. Coordinated surveillance system to get early warning of any Indian venture.

 

[Zarvan]

to counter Indian CSD Pak armed forces may take following steps:

1. Secure its national / strategic assets, ie, all sea port, mineral reserve, CPEC, etc.
2. Intelligence and diplomatic operation both in peace and war.
3. Joint offensive force to destroy indian Centre of Gravity in right time and space.
4. Secure SLOC and maritime zone along with air space and land border.
5. Increasing arms production alomg with adequate ammunition reserve.
6. Formations earmarked for countering CSD must adopt new tactics and equipments.
7. Coordinated surveillance system to get early warning of any Indian venture.

The things you mentioned are mostly defensive and we may say that we fighting defensive war but for years we are training our guys for offensive war. In case of any solid lead that India might attack us there are chances we may start it and go inside Indian territory to engage them there

 

[aryadravida_exmuslim]

The things you mentioned are mostly defensive and we may say that we fighting defensive war but for years we are training our guys for offensive war. In case of any solid lead that India might attack us there are chances we may start it and go inside Indian territory to engage them there

Pakistan should never go on the offensive into India. You'll lose half your forces and then your country.
Better to keep most of your forces and most of your country by being defensive.