Pakistan (non nuclear)plan to counter cold start

[omega supremme]

All military and political actions are calculated. Everything we have done to deal with Pak terrorism, we have been very successful at it.

If you were successful in your terrorism than Pakistan should have been isolated by now, CPEC shouldn't have come to Pakistan and your proxies shouldn't have been pushed back to Afghanistan.

NOTE: It is rather PAKISTAN who in the process of eradicating your proxy revived the Kashmir movement in just one year and than Uri and pathankot like attacks happened which explain alot about your military calculated moves. Even today while I speak The Kashmir movement is in full swing in india.

 

[Gryphon]

Light armor on such wheeled platforms is an issue. Adding more armor will affect mobility.

PA will send MBT in direct combat to make contact with enemy, so the crew is saved and more chances of putting a damaged/partially destroyed MBT into action. like this example of AZ, if you know its history.
View attachment 440890


Sending any other platform to make direct contact with enemy whether wheeled (stryker/AMX-10 types etc) or light armoured IFV/APC (M-113 variants) is not suitable. Even the US Army doesn't put a 120mm smooth bore gun on Stryker, such as M256 which has produced good results and is a decent gun for TD role.

Tank vs tank battle cannot be avoided but T-85 III with its 125mm gun can give hard time to T-72 or T-90. T-59 and T-69 can stand their ground through proper strategy in battle if encountering enemy MBT's. The L-7 gun has low penetration (compared to 125mm), specific 105mm sabot rounds have higher penetration but at small ranges than normal (less than 1500m). Such ranges are possible in northern punjab and southern kashmir due to natural obstacles and semi-hilly terrain.
In saying that, the T-59 and T-69 are mostly used for infantry support. They are not usually expected to specifically combat enemy armor, which is the job of ATGM teams, whether armored/wheeled/dug in.

Desert is a different story where combat at longer ranges (2000+ m) are expected so MBT's armed with 125mm gun like AK, T-80 UD are used, which have better penetration using niaza rounds.

It was a trend in WW2, where as putting a high velocity bigger calibre gun on a thinly armored vehicle produced good results but nowadays ATGM teams are excellent Tank destroyers due to many reasons, firstly because they are defensive weapons. All platforms are cheaper to operate and light in armor giving good mobility. The light armor is compensated with ambush and camouflage techniques (such as used in defensive/dug in positions).

It is an honour to have you here. You explain it so well.

 

[Signalian]

You are simplifying it way too much.

I can go in details. But to portray in your post that any indian weapon is invincible, is utter nonsense.

Even I can say smoke and soft kill equipment can make ATGMs useless.

Not useless, temporarily ineffective maybe. ATGM teams usually form an arc of ambush or they are placed strategically to cover the area, focusing specifically on ingress and egress routes. They know how the smoke screen and soft kill systems work so bearing that in mind, they are placed accordingly. When mobile, they also shift positions to fire more effectively.

And the T-90's armour can weather any tank shell you have.

Like i said, utter nonsense of invincibility is not required.
T-90 or any MBT's armor is not the same everywhere on it. There are weak points like turret top, rear of the MBT etc. Frontal armor is max, then sides. Its up to the gunner or operator to seek which side to hit for maximum destruction.

And there is no need to overestimate the L-7, the less said the better.

L-7 has its own virtues, it is a proven gun with excellent accuracy. At ranges of 1-1.5 km its very effective, though it has max range of 3.5 km.

Most of the tanks within PA are in need of replacement if you even want to counter our old T-72s, never mind the T-90s.

PA has LAT and HAT Regiments with Infantry, Mechanised and Armoured Divisions. Their job is to hunt and destroy enemy MBT's and other Armoured vehicles. LAT's have Baktar Shikan defenders, HAT's have M-901 (TOW) or Maaz (Green Arrow).

PA MBT's are mostly used to lead assault on enemy weak points, break through enemy lines, flank enemy formations etc. The older tanks which could be T-59 or T-69 are still heavily modernised with lots of improvements. They may need replacement but that doesnt mean they are completely outdated.

Your only modern tanks are a small number of Al Khalids and T-80s.

Thats roughly 600 MBT's in total and increasing every year, so I wouldnt call that a small number. The Al Zarrar is fairly modern upgrade, it carries a good gun, has upgraded engine, better armor than T-59 and other modifications. Ruling out this heavily modified MBT is sheer ignorance.

Even your ATGMs are pretty much ancient by today's standards. I think it is prudent of me to remind you that old ATGMs have failed completely against the T-90s, and that's pretty much everything you have.

PA uses TOW/TOW II and Green Arrow (Baktar-Shikan, almost same mechanism as TOW). The US Army uses TOW on its current M1134 Stryker, M2 Bradley, Humvee etc, which clearly shows that TOW is not at all ancient by today's standards, in fact the way that TOW has been upgraded over time, similarly improvements for Baktar Shikan are also in place, like a laser aiming device under development for improved accuracy and range.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Because you guys are doing a damn good job killing each other. One of the main reasons why military action was not considered after the 2008 attacks.

Lol let me see if I got ur thought process right...

1) Claim India is super mighty and Pakistan is extremely weak
2) Some Pakistanis ask u "well if that's true then why don't u come attack us"
3) Ur thoughts: *Oh shit my argument just got blown to pieces...time for an excuse to hide behind*

And then this is the sorry excuse u came up with?

Pakistan's isolation is already happening.

Where? I wanna see it.

Let's see...
Any sanctions? No
Any deterioration of relations?
Russia -> Improved
China -> Improved
GCC -> Same as before
Iran -> Same as before
Turkey -> Improved
Western European Countries -> Same as before
All the other countries in the world -> Same as before or improved

The only two countries where the relations have deteriorated are India and US.

As for India no Pakistani cares and the reason for the deterioration of US/Pak relations...that's simply a geostrategic move by US to please India. Since u guys are needed to balance China. India is to become a pawn in this grand game of chess.

CPEC is a disaster, which you are not aware of yet.

And u know this how? Do u have some insider information that no one else is aware of? Or r u some sort of Indian Nostradamus?

I suspect it's neither of those and it's much more likely that u pulled this out of ur a**

TTP isn't an Indian proxy, they are your brothers that you want to eliminate, nothing to do with us. TTP in fact hates India as much as the next ISI agent. Indian proxies are sitting in Kabul, not Peshawar. In 10 years, their ground forces will start rivaling yours. At least they will be equipped with far better tanks than Al Zarrar.

Well at least u r honest enough to admit that India has proxies sitting in Afghanistan.

As for Afghan ground forces rivaling Pak ground forces and having better tanks in just 10 years?
Lol I don't know if u r serious or if u r trolling...in either case it's just laughable. It's a shame that u r a senior member here.

 

[Gryphon]

PA has LAT and HAT Regiments with Infantry, Mechanised and Armoured Divisions. Their job is to hunt and destroy enemy MBT's and other Armoured vehicles. LAT's have Baktar Shikan defenders, HAT's have M-901 (TOW) or Maaz (Green Arrow).

Between the LAT and HAT regiments, portable ATGM's have been ignored.
A batch of Alcotan-AT (M2) rockets was acquired, but that isn't enough.

M901 (with 2 Corps) and Maaz are present in small numbers. Mostly, TOW mounted on M113's are used.
PA should move to modern weapon systems such as the Denel Ingwe.

 

[Signalian]

@Nilgiri @Joe Shearer

Page 8 , post 107. i made simple maps showing movement of PA and IA armored forces.

Please make better ones.

 

[Armchair]

Indian CSD is comfortably countered without NASR too.

Only Armoured and mechanised formations of both countries have been mentioned which will be involved when India launches CSD. Of course infantry can play a significant role along with Air Force. The direction of attack may vary but this is to give an idea of deployment of forces of both countries along the border focusing on IA CSD forces.

Pakistani forces are Yellow and Blue.

Indian forces are Red and Orange.
View attachment 387020
While the Local forces engage, the PA 6th armoured deployed closer to border can either:

1. Encircle Indian forces from behind through narowal and decimate them.
2. By pass Indian attack at Narowal and enter India before IA 1st armoured reaches border. 8th Armoured can provide back up to PA forces engaging indian CSD armoured and mechanised forces.
View attachment 387022

The situation seems almost same near Lahore-Amritsar and Kasur axis. Below is an infantry dominated area from both sides with best defence built here.

View attachment 387024

It depends where PA will move 1st Armoured Division but even keeping it reserve, Indian CSD Armoured and mechanised forces are countered by locally deployed PA Armoured brigades.


The situation becomes a bit tense near Bahawalpur - Sri GangaNagar Axis but it is yet to be seen whether PA 1st Armoured Div will be used to counter IA 33rd Armoured Div in the desert.
View attachment 387025

At the start of Indian CSD in the desert sector, PA can defend the desert region in the south and if lucky can push Indian forces back but as the war progresses, Indian Forces will accumulate in numbers after 2-3 days of war as IA Armoured and Mechanised forces start pouring in from east and south-east.

View attachment 387026

Above is the most vulnerable sector. PA will need aviation assets like Gunships and UCAV's as well as PAF cover to defend this region. Pushing into Indian territory here is possible (slim chances) but only if initial losses are kept at minimal and enemy is thrown back. There is no PA back up ARMOURED DIVISION in this area although there are chances that PA may have another Armoured Brigade under V-Corps to work along 25th Mechanised Division.

NASR will most probably be used in this area.

@Ulla @Mentee @Northern

@django

Have read this post so many times and for so long. It is a great post. Just a few (more) thoughts:

1. PA should experiment with different kinds of vehicles in this terrain. The terrain is very difficult and the desert sand is different than other deserts. It is impassible in many ways. But the "right kind" of vehicles may have a clear mobility advantage.

2. 2 more divisions should be added in this sector. These should be all professional, and the numbers should be made up by putting "civil brigades" of conscripts or "nation building brigades" in less important sectors.

3. CAS will be critical in this area an PA should seriously invest in CAS. A handful of passes by even the most basic CAS aircraft would decimate formations (Signalian has already touched upon this)

4. PA has traditionally held a defensive strategy in this sector, but there is a huge opportunity to turn this area into an area where PA can take the offensive. Remember, Indian Army has traditionally preferred to fight from well-fortified areas. This is where there is an open terrain for maneuver. Such forces can play a role in tying town Indian southern divisions, which would allow a breathing space for an operation towards Rann of Kutch and Junagar. Perhaps even get us within striking distance of Mumbai.

If we decimate Indian divisions when they attack this sector, there is a chance we could end up making serious inroads into India.