Pakistan (non nuclear)plan to counter cold start

[Vapnope]

Ceasefire saved your sialjot sector and haji pair from us.

You know nothing about Sialkot or Haji pir !

 

[omega supremme]

Oh---by the way---I was right about General Kiyani----it is all coming out now.

How ?

 

[omega supremme]

to counter Indian CSD Pak armed forces may take following steps:

1. Secure its national / strategic assets, ie, all sea port, mineral reserve, CPEC, etc.
2. Intelligence and diplomatic operation both in peace and war.
3. Joint offensive force to destroy indian Centre of Gravity in right time and space.
4. Secure SLOC and maritime zone along with air space and land border.
5. Increasing arms production alomg with adequate ammunition reserve.
6. Formations earmarked for countering CSD must adopt new tactics and equipments.
7. Coordinated surveillance system to get early warning of any Indian venture.

For your information indian CSD strike will take 48 hour's to initiate whereas our troops are mostly stationed near the border area so our deployment in any way will still be more faster than enemy offence.
CSD success is strongly dependent on,

1. 1st on aerial coverage for which Pakistan has already inducted many air defence systems and this is going on from 2000s and PAF is also in better position to counter aerial threat's due to JF-17's coming.
2. 2nd armour thrust this will become null if it doesn't get the required air support it needs and element of surprise which can easily be detected due to any heavy movement across border by both sides.
3. 3rd artillery barrages which requires SPG'S which india doesn't has and has just recently ordered for 100 K9's.

All these points are essential without even one of the component CSD cannot be effective in anyway and will be a slaughter of indian troops.

Note: Pakistan won't make much changes to it's doctrine except few changes in it's defencive doctrine against CSD and the rest will remain same meaning Pakistan will immediately retaliate by initiating it's offensive.

Aftermath:
CSD will cause a lot of troops loss and land loss to indian forces, as many troops close to border will be part of CSD and few shall be left to guard the border position. As soon as CSD will be in the process of being destroyed at the same time our troops will also be attacking across the border taking more land due to less resistance. The normal time expected or hypothetical time for the main indian force to arrive at border will be close to 72 hours by which Pakistan real expected time to reach it's border positions is 24 hours so we will still be in better position as we will be well dugged in and fighting our enemies on their soil.

 

[MastanKhan]

How ?

Hi,

It was stated in the post and discussed to death on this forum---Abbotabad.

 

[omega supremme]

Hi,

It was stated in the post and discussed to death on this forum---Abbotabad.

I would love to read about General Kiyani can you please share the link of the thread.

 

[Bheemsen]

Pakistan has very few 4th generation fighters only 156-158 where as India has 390 4th generation jets all but 3 sqds deployed on Pakistan front.

Similarly Pakistan armoured force is below par too as they have only around 2050 tanks in service.
From 1975 onwards it acquired 825 Type 59, Type-59s bought prior to that are too old.
It also acquired in the same period 300 Type-69, 285 Type-85, 330 MBT-2000, 320 T-80.

Half of Pakistan Navy frigates are also around 40 year old.

By 2020 India Airforce will have

69+12 Mig 29 UPG
45 Mig29K
50 Mirage 2000 upgraded
36 Rafales
272 Su30 MKI
126 Tejas Mk1+Mk1A
100 Jaguar Darin 3 upgraded

This comes around 700 4/4+ gen Fighter jets

 

[Reichsmarschall]

126 Tejas Mk1+Mk1A

 

[Trango Towers]

By 2020 India Airforce will have

69+12 Mig 29 UPG
45 Mig29K
50 Mirage 2000 upgraded
36 Rafales
272 Su30 MKI
126 Tejas Mk1+Mk1A
100 Jaguar Darin 3 upgraded

This comes around 700 4/4+ gen Fighter jets

In 2 years you will produce 126 tejas......I guess only in India

 

[randomradio]

Indian CSD is comfortably countered without NASR too.

Only Armoured and mechanised formations of both countries have been mentioned which will be involved when India launches CSD. Of course infantry can play a significant role along with Air Force. The direction of attack may vary but this is to give an idea of deployment of forces of both countries along the border focusing on IA CSD forces.

Pakistani forces are Yellow and Blue.

Indian forces are Red and Orange.
View attachment 387020
While the Local forces engage, the PA 6th armoured deployed closer to border can either:

1. Encircle Indian forces from behind through narowal and decimate them.
2. By pass Indian attack at Narowal and enter India before IA 1st armoured reaches border. 8th Armoured can provide back up to PA forces engaging indian CSD armoured and mechanised forces.
View attachment 387022

The situation seems almost same near Lahore-Amritsar and Kasur axis. Below is an infantry dominated area from both sides with best defence built here.

View attachment 387024

It depends where PA will move 1st Armoured Division but even keeping it reserve, Indian CSD Armoured and mechanised forces are countered by locally deployed PA Armoured brigades.


The situation becomes a bit tense near Bahawalpur - Sri GangaNagar Axis but it is yet to be seen whether PA 1st Armoured Div will be used to counter IA 33rd Armoured Div in the desert.
View attachment 387025

At the start of Indian CSD in the desert sector, PA can defend the desert region in the south and if lucky can push Indian forces back but as the war progresses, Indian Forces will accumulate in numbers after 2-3 days of war as IA Armoured and Mechanised forces start pouring in from east and south-east.

View attachment 387026

Above is the most vulnerable sector. PA will need aviation assets like Gunships and UCAV's as well as PAF cover to defend this region. Pushing into Indian territory here is possible (slim chances) but only if initial losses are kept at minimal and enemy is thrown back. There is no PA back up ARMOURED DIVISION in this area although there are chances that PA may have another Armoured Brigade under V-Corps to work along 25th Mechanised Division.

NASR will most probably be used in this area.

@Ulla @Mentee @Northern

@django

If you take out all the Type 59, 69 and even 85s, how many tanks does Pakistan actually possess that have the necessary stopping power against the T-90 if your scenario has to play out in your favour?

 

[Signalian]

If you take out all the Type 59, 69 and even 85s, how many tanks does Pakistan actually possess that have the necessary stopping power against the T-90 if your scenario has to play out in your favour?

PA will use ATGM to defend against IA MBT whether T-90 or Arjun or T-72. Dont under estimate the L-7 105mm gun of T-59/69 and the 125mm gun of T-85 III.

 

[Awan68]

PA will use ATGM to defend against IA MBT whether T-90 or Arjun or T-72. Dont under estimate the L-7 105mm gun of T-59/69 and the 125mm gun of T-85 III.

Arjun will have to fly over bridges in punjab as it cant cross them

 

[ziaulislam]

tejas...really

and since when the jauger trainer is 4+ gen fighter, its worse than mirage 5 ROSE
i means we are not sure about Darin upgrade plan even, even the engine is not finalized for that plane

PA will use ATGM to defend against IA MBT whether T-90 or Arjun or T-72. Dont under estimate the L-7 105mm gun of T-59/69 and the 125mm gun of T-85 III.

real issue will be the indian in start cold airforce,
PA will need to up its game in anti tank system which it has
also need more mobility

PAF needs urgently more f-16s along with thunders, if f-16s are not coming, the book should be closed and we should look for another 4th or 5th gen fighter
options include mix of old and new typhoons or J-10
mirage 2000 was floated for strike role but they are not going to be cost-effective

PAF needs 400 good fighters and layered medium range SAM which are easily mobile, this would only come if a JV is done and produced in large number to deter any Indian aggression by 2025

if IAF is going to implement cold start it will need total air dominance first which would mean it needs 4-5x the strength in airforce

 

[Falcon26]

Anyone know why Pakistan Army hasn’t invested in dedicated tank destroyers like
M1128 Mobile Gun System? Weapon systems like this can blunt sudden incursions due to their mobility and lethal firepower. This has always intrigued me.

 

[Signalian]

real issue will be the indian in start cold airforce,
PA will need to up its game in anti tank system which it has
also need more mobility

The AH-1 F/S/Z, Mi-24 and UCAV Burraq using Barq, are very mobile.

Anyone know why Pakistan Army hasn’t invested in dedicated tank destroyers like
M1128 Mobile Gun System? Weapon systems like this can blunt sudden incursions due to their mobility and lethal firepower. This has always intrigued me.

The 105mm Gun is already used in MBT's. The dedicated Anti-tank RR has 106mm which are being used on western border. PA also uses SPG-9 though not in dedicated AT role.

 

[Cookie Monster]

For the Punjab plains and Sindh desert areas where Indian army is most likely to deploy its armored divisions, Pak should build fortifications. In the northern areas and Kashmir, the terrain makes it harder to mobilize and carry out an armored assault, which is why a vast majority of Indian army would try to thrust into Pak territory through Punjab and Sindh. During WWII France had followed a similar strategy by building fortifications to stop/slow German armoured assault. This is known as the Maginot Line. Something like that should slow the initial Indian offensives enough to give Pak a chance to mobilize a counter offensive.