Pakistan Navy---A Day Late & A Dollar Short:---

[CriticalThought]

That's not time of innocence, that's time of 'helplessness'.

There is a lot of fake propaganda about nukes.

The point of the video was you will kill more ships if you do a regular air burst or surface burst rather than an underwater burst. However, a navy that operates under the threat of nuclear war will take precautions, particularly spacing.

Actually, in all of my own posts I have been advocating mid-air detonation to take out surface assets. Only on response to @MastanKhan did I talk about sub-surface.

The nukes will change spacing to a point where coordinated sub hunting becomes unviable allowing our subs to target easily. That's my plan.

 

[Signalian]

So rather than just having 4 submarines in 5 years----you would also have 3-4 frigates of the 5000 + tonnage capacity plus at least 4 sqdrns of heavies---be it the JH7B---or the J16's----and some smaller vessels in the 500---1500 tonnage---.

After the 5 years---another deal of 5 billion signed for more subs and ships if needed.

Neither you nor the PN considers anything for the Pakistan Marines. They are treated as a security force for naval installations.

I doubt that J-11 series of aircraft are for export due to a license issue between Russia and china.

The thing is that is the purpose of the JH7B / J16 / SU35---to spread out the enemy air force---. That is what the war is all about---make your enemy disperse its assets---thin out from where they are concetrated.

Always keep this in mind---the enemy coastline is its " achilles heel " and mumbai is the center of it all----.

We are a smaller country---we need smaller numbers to defend---they are a much larger and WIDER country---they need many times the numbers to defend their assets from deep strike---.

Deep strikes into enemy territory will create such a panic that it may result in catastrophic failure of enemy defenses---.

Look at your map---and visualize different points 800-1000 miles away in enemy territory---you can fly 400 miles parallel to enemy coastline---dash in 150--250 miles launch your standoff weapons from a distance of 150-300 miles
away and be gone.

IN Naval assets cannot be ignored. Naval Mig-29's will be on a look out and will fly to intercept any PN naval wing or PAF flying next to coastline. So IAF thinning out probably wont be possible.

You have no faith in surface to surface missiles.

Again as I state---I say JH7B---because it is the least expensive and the best option for the money---.

The bottom line is that if you are not able to force the enemy to spread its assets---you are in deep trouble right from the word go.

I wish PAF or PN had once shown interest in JH-7B.

 

[randomradio]

The nukes will change spacing to a point where coordinated sub hunting becomes unviable allowing our subs to target easily. That's my plan.

Nukes will do nothing to stop coordination. When we say coordination, we are not talking about ships sticking together when hunting subs. Sub hunting takes place over massive distances and primarily utilize aircraft. Nukes will do nothing to change that.

The British are currently hunting potentially multiple Russian subs near Scotland with 1 ship, 1 sub and 3 patrol aircraft.

What's more important for submarines is an A2/AD zone or air superiority. PN ships and PAF aircraft can guarantee neither.

 

[CriticalThought]

Nukes will do nothing to stop coordination. When we say coordination, we are not talking about ships sticking together when hunting subs. Sub hunting takes place over massive distances and primarily utilize aircraft. Nukes will do nothing to change that.

The British are currently hunting potentially multiple Russian subs near Scotland with 1 ship, 1 sub and 3 patrol aircraft.

What's more important for submarines is an A2/AD zone or air superiority. PN ships and PAF aircraft can guarantee neither.

Against a massive naval fleet, subs face a severe disadvantage. As soon as it attacks, it reveals its position leading to ASW elements converging upon the area. They suffer the second disadvantage of low speed thus limiting their ability to escape fast movers.

Here is how the scenario plays out. Indian attack fleet sets sail for Pakistan. Due to the nuclear threat, any config that lumps assets within a few square kms of each other would be unviable. They would need to observe huge spacing meaning the disadvantage to our subs becomes void.

 

[hacker J]

But yet the indian media, establishment and so-called experts all claimed pre-May 1998 that Pakistan would NEVER EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance. That the West and others would stop it.

How do you know indian agents on the ground right now are not tracking Pakistan's advanced strategic weapons program? Perhaps they are and are fully aware of Pakistan's REAL capabilities. Which is why india was powerless to attack Pakistan militarily after mumbai 2008. Even though Pakistan is more than 7x smaller than india and doesn't have abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems developed by the West and Russia

So u agree that u must have been attacked as u carried out these attacks ?

 

[nana41]

Hi,

Pakistan's military conglomerate has again been caught short---the surfacing of the indian sub 40 nautical miles away just when the chinese naval ship was visiting pakistan---and the inauguration of CPEC route at Gwadar just showed the pak navy was woefully ill-equipped.

A few years ago when the rumors surfaced about pak military signing a 5 billion dollars deal for 8 chinese subs and supply time of 10 years from the time of signing---and delivery of the last submarine---.

I had written that---that deal was totally ill prepared and ill conceived---. I had stated that the target should have been 5 years project---number of submarine cut in half---and the other half split between surface ships and an aircraft of the type of JH7B---.

So---that all the three facets are covered at the same time in parallel---by three different groups---which has three times the force multiplier effect---.

So rather than just having 4 submarines in 5 years----you would also have 3-4 frigates of the 5000 + tonnage capacity plus at least 4 sqdrns of heavies---be it the JH7B---or the J16's----and some smaller vessels in the 500---1500 tonnage---.

After the 5 years---another deal of 5 billion signed for more subs and ships if needed.

The casual and callous attitude of the pak military showed that it did not foresee or visualize such an incident happening so close to its waters---and that shows a very poor understanding of what is at stake in the arena---at Gwadar---the arabian sea---the gulf---.

Basically---pak military has been caught with its pants down one more time.

When military Shaikh Chili Macho Mush was busy showing his power,Thugs like Zardari and Nawaz looting foreign exchange and taking out of the country,defence ministers and Naval Commanders satisfied with drills and parades,no wonder, the sorry state of weak Navy was bound to happen.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

So u agree that u must have been attacked as u carried out these attacks ?

Whether it was Pakistan or not, you indians were 100% convinced it was we who were responsible. The most pertinent point is WHAT is a nation that is more than 7x bigger than Pakistan and has abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems whilst we are denied this privilege, going to do about it?

 

[YeBeWarned]

Kia biat karta he, koi respect nai, tum wi bhul gea he, we all are Pakistani Brothers and should respect each other even if we have different opinions, that is only a digital platform and you can hide you behind an avatar, introduce yourself !


Mind your language my comrade, what cheer Leader ? I am YOUR SUPREME LEADER - Bushido (武士道)

View attachment 359375

As a Pakistan i am defending our Forces from a Disturb Old man from US putting Allegation of Corruption on them .. i wonder if you have any Respect for your Forces ?

 

[Mrc]

In ww 2.... not many cars were sold...

But u boats of german navy humbled a must larger surface fleet of a global superpower to an extent that royal navy was rendered useless and has not much to show for their size and strength in ww2..

A large and quiet submarine fleet is the best choice... unless u are willing to invest in aircraft cariers to provide aircover to surface fleet against much larger navy....

 

[LegitimateIdiot]

Hi,

Pakistan's military conglomerate has again been caught short---the surfacing of the indian sub 40 nautical miles away just when the chinese naval ship was visiting pakistan---and the inauguration of CPEC route at Gwadar just showed the pak navy was woefully ill-equipped.

A few years ago when the rumors surfaced about pak military signing a 5 billion dollars deal for 8 chinese subs and supply time of 10 years from the time of signing---and delivery of the last submarine---.

I had written that---that deal was totally ill prepared and ill conceived---. I had stated that the target should have been 5 years project---number of submarine cut in half---and the other half split between surface ships and an aircraft of the type of JH7B---.

So---that all the three facets are covered at the same time in parallel---by three different groups---which has three times the force multiplier effect---.

So rather than just having 4 submarines in 5 years----you would also have 3-4 frigates of the 5000 + tonnage capacity plus at least 4 sqdrns of heavies---be it the JH7B---or the J16's----and some smaller vessels in the 500---1500 tonnage---.

After the 5 years---another deal of 5 billion signed for more subs and ships if needed.

The casual and callous attitude of the pak military showed that it did not foresee or visualize such an incident happening so close to its waters---and that shows a very poor understanding of what is at stake in the arena---at Gwadar---the arabian sea---the gulf---.

Basically---pak military has been caught with its pants down one more time.

How can the Pakistan military prevent this from happening again

 

[Humble Analyst]

Your points have been noted and strict action is underway against all the involved Admirals. We will be seeking your professional advice and guidance in all future planning of our military resources. Thankyou.

Thank you for taking action against those who took kick backs in French submarines deal. Buying French instead of Swedish submarines was a great decision???

O bhai jan, looking in the back-view-mirror and criticizing and asking why why is very easy. Try to walk a mile in the shoes of a General, you will get blisters


why why why ki rat laga dee hai, do you have any DOLLARS in your pocket? I can give you 20 aircraft carriers if u can pay for them


New idea will go in your mind only when you will take out the old ones, your radar screen is cluttered and you hard disk needs formatting then you will start understanding LOGIC

Taking the right decision is the aim, not walking. Bad decisions are always made and criticizing them can help make better decision, provided concerned people have open minds. Augusta B versus Swedish Sub? Not enough funds for Naval assets, relying mostly on F16.
Not the best decisions. Without having good protection from Air and surface craft can be tricky.

 

[Hamza913]

Any military conflict between India and Pakistan will be brief and limited to ground forces along the LOC, the Air Force and Navy wouldn't play a role (well maybe the Air Force, but even then that's unlikely). So the PN shouldn't exactly be a priority.

The PN should just focus on being nasty enough to deter the IN, with particular focus on acquisitions and improvements on submarines which they are doing very well, as well as how to combat Indian submarines which they seem to be doing well at given how they caught one a while ago. One has to keep in mind that we lack the finance India has, so just give us time, once the economy gets better so will the military.

One also has to keep in mind how big of a coast the IN has to guard in comparison to the PN. They will only be able to send a much smaller fraction of their total fleet, making the task for the PN significantly easier even if they do come in. Even at its current strength, the PN will put up a nasty fight and hurt the IN pretty badly, and our submarines are a capable of denying the IN access to our coast.

 

[Hassan Guy]

It would had been much smarter to buy first 4 submarines by 2023 and look for a more advanced solution after that.

Or

The Shipyard in Karachi produced the Submarine(s) with the AIP on its own. If that wasn't possible at least jointly produce the Submarine/score a program similar to what the air force has with the JF-17.

I will say, I'm not too optimistic. But I will keep faith in our Admirals.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Sorry Bro, but unfortunately PN needs a min of 2, realistically (given down time) 3 squadrons ,of twin heavies ASAP. The sooner we get them, the better it would be.

Agree and we need Air superiority planes to cover main bases including one on coasts

Any military conflict between India and Pakistan will be brief and limited to ground forces along the LOC, the Air Force and Navy wouldn't play a role (well maybe the Air Force, but even then that's unlikely). So the PN shouldn't exactly be a priority.

The PN should just focus on being nasty enough to deter the IN, with particular focus on acquisitions and improvements on submarines which they are doing very well, as well as how to combat Indian submarines which they seem to be doing well at given how they caught one a while ago. One has to keep in mind that we lack the finance India has, so just give us time, once the economy gets better so will the military.

One also has to keep in mind how big of a coast the IN has to guard in comparison to the PN. They will only be able to send a much smaller fraction of their total fleet, making the task for the PN significantly easier even if they do come in. Even at its current strength, the PN will put up a nasty fight and hurt the IN pretty badly, and our submarines are a capable of denying the IN access to our coast.

This is one scenario, but there are multiple other so please think of other possibilities.

 

[Hamza913]

This is one scenario, but there are multiple other so please think of other possibilities.

This is the most likely scenario, and given our financial constraints, it's the only one we can afford to be ready for.