Pakistan Navy---A Day Late & A Dollar Short:---

[Humble Analyst]

This is the most likely scenario, and given our financial constraints, it's the only one we can afford to be ready for.

Well the enemy does not sympathize with our financial situation and fight according to our plans.

We never have money but corruption and kick backs never stop.

 

[araz]

Yes sir, indeed, we watch the prophetic over simplified revelation by people and are reduced to sardonic chuckles.



Mr. MK,
your assumptions on Pakistan navy submarine program are based on publicly available information. Well, for your enlightenment, the publicly released information on the Pakistan future submarine programs and other underwater endeavors is deceptive on purpose, and conceals specific information. There is reasons for keeping the submarine arm a silent force, which you can continue to argue against. Some of us who are privy to the national secrets, who gave our blood and soul to this country's defence, who lost our dear ones in many high and low intensity conflicts, and continue to lose our children at the hands of terrorism, will continue to support the policy of keeping certain matters secret from public eye, specifically as it pertains to the current and future Submarine fleet.

You, on the other hand, have the right of your opinion, and talk whatever craziness that surrounds in you in your extradition aboard. While I know you have a genuine heart as you spend more time here (on this forum) than with your new comrades, your generalized assertions and opinions are entertaining to only you, and perhaps enlightening to the few souls who consider you as an "expert"

BR



Tall claims indeed. May I respond? The nation is in strong hands and has a vision, while the likes of you are unable, or unwilling to see as it will reduce your own blowing horn to a squeak.

To your 11 years on a builliten board, what credibility do you have? not much I must submit.

Indeed sir, history does not forbid well to super stars. Are you waiting that i bit the dust too? I may retire back to the ashes and dust but you shall as well.

I am yet to see you accept any of your mistakes, including all your vile opinions, your uncouth and insulting assertions, and your anti Pakistan propaganda which maligns the hearts of many young readers. What is your agenda really?

I will give you the reference which you may not be able to digest. The first war of Islam, when the 313 stood for battle on the call of the prophet (p.b.u.h) and his true love, how many swords and horses did they have?

You are a used car salesman, show monger and a tabloid journalist at the most. May the lord guide you to open your mind, and look beyond your "world" as there is always an ocean of information you are/were/will remain unaware of.

I have been on this board and seen these shenanigans since 2006. It is always easy to assess people on the basis of a retrospectoscope and malign them. No one wants to see the real picture and the bigger designs of the powers that be for the region, be it in the light of events coming to pass and their significance or the light of the ahadeeth of our beloved Prophet SAW regarding the end of times.
That we have corruption galore is a given. That that it taints some of the deals which are made by the armed forces granted without candour or reservations.
The man who did not listen to Zardari risked the welfare of his familyand did not alter the financial side and had the ignonimity of a corrupt woman telling him to get out when he was discharged from his duties and reached the head office was told by his senior, you should have done it, we would all have eaten out of the money. Can someone imagine what he might have felt. But life goes on.
Where the OP fails to understand is the fact that the man himself and another very senior AF man who spent his life post retirement in Lockmart told him the deal would have been too expensive.
So we have a constant barrage of negative rhetoric against the forces based on presumed failure of various key decisions without looking at the prevailing circumstances and the fact that all said and done the force still has people who day in and day out stand against corruption inspite of threats to their career and even life.
As you have pointed out no one but the high ups in the navy and a few chosen ones know the details of what is involved. @Rashid Mahmood is Ex PN and he remains quiter than a mouse on the forum while the OP can venture an opinion!!Subhan Allah to that.
And so the show will go on like it has over the last decade with a lifetime of frustrations being brought out in the form of allegations of wrong doings and how people have no idea but our OP armed with books of fiction which he derives his knowledge from knows all. His band of merry men follow his twists and turns and his jumbled" analyses" of doom and gloom and rampant corruption like the gospel witout relizing that behind the scene people are dying to safeguard the very secrets they want unfolded on tabloids to satisfy their puny egos. And then they will still go on and pontificate as if the sun shines out of their rear end. So all salute to stupidity for only a stupid person says he knows best.I on the other hand know nothing .
A

 

[Indus Falcon]

As you have pointed out no one but the high ups in the navy and a few chosen ones know the details of what is involved. @Rashid Mahmood is Ex PN and he remains quiter than a mouse on the forum while the OP can venture an opinion!!Subhan Allah to that.

A

He is not stupid like me. Doesn't want to loose his pension over an online forum.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Does anyone know how the S-20 compares to the Type 214 subs we originally planned to buy?

 

[Indus Falcon]

Hi,

Knowing the americans as much as I do---they allowed the sub to get in close---knowing very well that it could do nothing at all---. They just wanted the chinese to have a moment of glory---and that is all.

Never sell the americans short---.

As for the indian sub---. Subs don't surface 40 miles from enemy coastline to breath---that sub was a diversion for another subthat was deep inside pakistani waters---and this sub sacrificed its location to get the attention for the other sub to escape---.

Sir, when you have an intruder in your house, and you take him down, do you switch the safety on your firearm, and put it back in the gun locker? OR do you sweep every room, nook and carny, in your house, and insure that there are no more intruders?

I would be insulting my intelligence, IF I were to believe, that you are not aware, of what would have happened to another sub hiding nearer Pakistan's coast. So what exactly is the point of this line of questioning?

 

[VCheng]

No one wants to see the real picture and the bigger designs of the powers that be for the region, be it in the light of events coming to pass and their significance or the light of the ahadeeth of our beloved Prophet SAW regarding the end of times.

A deeply telling comment, Sir, on many levels, for sure.

 

[araz]

A deeply telling comment, Sir, on many levels, for sure.

People just dont understand how freaking dark these times are and what the bigger picture is. I just fear by the time they wake up it may well be too late.
A

 

[VCheng]

People just dont understand how freaking dark these times are and what the bigger picture is. I just fear by the time they wake up it may well be too late.
A

I look forward to being educated by the likes of you who obviously understand the bigger picture on a deeper level. I find being an observer much more rewarding than being an active participant. Thanks in advance!

 

[Inception-06]

He is not stupid like me. Doesn't want to loose his pension over an online forum.

My God I hope that is not really the case for you !

 

[Indus Falcon]

My God I hope that is not really the case for you !

Alhumdullilh no. Allah's mercy interceded. The investigating officer died.

 

[New World]

Alhumdullilh no. Allah's mercy interceded. The investigating officer died.

 

[randomradio]

Against a massive naval fleet, subs face a severe disadvantage. As soon as it attacks, it reveals its position leading to ASW elements converging upon the area. They suffer the second disadvantage of low speed thus limiting their ability to escape fast movers.

Here is how the scenario plays out. Indian attack fleet sets sail for Pakistan. Due to the nuclear threat, any config that lumps assets within a few square kms of each other would be unviable. They would need to observe huge spacing meaning the disadvantage to our subs becomes void.

Do you know that NATO can detect Russian subs over vast areas of interest with lesser anti-sub assets than IN can deploy? Plus our current anti-sub assets are better than what NATO can deploy?

If the spacing becomes huge, then the subs are even more at a disadvantage because all the ships are still within sensor range of each other. You will have to look at the size of the battlespace, the Arabian Sea is not the Pacific Ocean.

Anyway, nuclear attacks on naval fleets is a very expensive proposition because you will still have to rely on saturation attacks, even if we are talking about just one ship. I doubt even Russia or the US have that kind of resources.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Do you know that NATO can detect Russian subs over vast areas of interest with lesser anti-sub assets than IN can deploy? Plus our current anti-sub assets are better than what NATO can deploy?

If the spacing becomes huge, then the subs are even more at a disadvantage because all the ships are still within sensor range of each other. You will have to look at the size of the battlespace, the Arabian Sea is not the Pacific Ocean.

Anyway, nuclear attacks on naval fleets is a very expensive proposition because you will still have to rely on saturation attacks, even if we are talking about just one ship. I doubt even Russia or the US have that kind of resources.

Lets not talk about IN's capabilities, after all it is a benchmark in "how not to operate a navy for dummies."

Open a separate thread and then indulge in blowing your own trumpet.

 

[RedRock]

Hi,

I am a pakistani by birth---and that will stay as my identity till eternity.

And you have no clue what I have told the higher brass---. I told Kiyani and Pasha to blow their brains with their .45's after their cowardice regarding OBL---and they were in power at that time---. Kiyani threatened me---I told him fck you coward---and I have been to pakistan mutliple times since then.

My man---just keep busy with your Mphil---if you can't participate---stay away---. This topic is BEYOND your capabilities as you have admitted---.

Hey

You insult the army for not telling the truth and call them names but yet you have still not revealed to us who you truly are? I have been on this forum for 2 years but was a silent reader for 4 and have been following all your posts. How can a "cars salesman" call serving chiefs a coward and ask them to fornicate with themselves?? Only way that is possible is for them to have called you directly for buying the escort vehicles or the vehicles they travel in, which i highly doubt So since you are lying so boldly about who you are then how can anyone trust what you say or take you seriously? This is a genuine question and i don't mean to be rude. Meaning, you don't need to tell us who you are but at least stop with the car salesman stuff. Because you seem to come up with very interesting ideas of certain incidents, but then how can anyone take it seriously when you don't take your own identity seriously?

Second, why are you assuming that the navy has not in fact planned in advance by buying 8 submarines?.(and don't for one second believe the timeline), God alone knows the exact timeline and a few people know expected timeline- and we the people know a timeline that makes you do what you just did. AND THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE) the bold part is not me screaming just me emphasizing. I have always maintained(not on this forum) that surface vessels are practically floating coffins with regards to weapons available now a days. Hell, the Americans are even moving to unmanned submarines for coastal defense (or at least it seems, they have made one and are testing the other or something on those lines).

Also, with regards to surface vessels, the navy is looking at Turkish ones and about to sign a deal with them(some say the deal is signed). Who knows? Should we know? Do we have a right to know, regarding our acquisitions? Quite frankly the people need to know nothing about what we have or are going to have. You have read Tom Clancy, how many times has the "element of surprise" popped up? we are a smaller nation and the element of surprise is one of our most greatest assets, if we have any in this day and age of IT, and hacking and all. But nonetheless, lets not serve it on a platter shall we.

Your problem arises with how the acquisition is done, the money involved, that is what i gather. Well then brother, i have only one advice, you should have joined the army to do something about it.

And your assumption, that the army/navy/air-force was caught with its pants down because an IN submarine surfaced 40+ miles away from our 12 km zone, how is that so? its international waters, they can go swimming there if they want and we cant do anything about it.

So the acquisition in my POV was spot on, submarines is the way forward - second strike capability, stealth, etc. Submarines detect an enemy ship send info to surface to engage without giving their location. The surface vessels are being acquired from a different source(Turkish-western components, probably more reliable and more better) so all in all, everything seems to be going well. You can never match IN vessel by vessel, forget it. The navy knows that better than anyone, yes; probably the argument could have been, why not earlier. But then again, did we have the money?

Anyhow, feel free to vent your anger and debate on a topic where know one knows the actual truth, but please do answer my first paragraph, since we all know, you do know that.

Cheers

 

[randomradio]

Lets not talk about IN's capabilities, after all it is a benchmark in "how not to operate a navy for dummies."

Open a separate thread and then indulge in blowing your own trumpet.

It's obvious you missed it, but the discussion is about whether you want to strike Indian ships by air or sea.

Mastan obviously prefers going by air while Critical thinks the Sea is better. I put up counter arguments against both. I pointed to Mastan that we have too many squadrons and A2/AD zones if he wants to go by air. And to Critical, I pointed out our anti-sub assets are better than what NATO has today.

So what's your problem with that?

Some facts are uncomfortable, learn to live with them.