Pakistan Navy---A Day Late & A Dollar Short:---

[hacker J]

Hi,

Pakistan's military conglomerate has again been caught short---the surfacing of the indian sub 40 nautical miles away just when the chinese naval ship was visiting pakistan---and the inauguration of CPEC route at Gwadar just showed the pak navy was woefully ill-equipped.

A few years ago when the rumors surfaced about pak military signing a 5 billion dollars deal for 8 chinese subs and supply time of 10 years from the time of signing---and delivery of the last submarine---.

I had written that---that deal was totally ill prepared and ill conceived---. I had stated that the target should have been 5 years project---number of submarine cut in half---and the other half split between surface ships and an aircraft of the type of JH7B---.

So---that all the three facets are covered at the same time in parallel---by three different groups---which has three times the force multiplier effect---.

So rather than just having 4 submarines in 5 years----you would also have 3-4 frigates of the 5000 + tonnage capacity plus at least 4 sqdrns of heavies---be it the JH7B---or the J16's----and some smaller vessels in the 500---1500 tonnage---.

After the 5 years---another deal of 5 billion signed for more subs and ships if needed.

The casual and callous attitude of the pak military showed that it did not foresee or visualize such an incident happening so close to its waters---and that shows a very poor understanding of what is at stake in the arena---at Gwadar---the arabian sea---the gulf---.

Basically---pak military has been caught with its pants down one more time.

Hi ,
Please ignore any miscalculations its just a raw theory that i am gonna put forward.
1. buying 8 submarines in a go is actually financially viable because when you sign a contract its based on predictive costs over the time including maintenance, spare parts, training , armaments etc so you an always upgrade the machine later with lesser cost rather than buying a completely new submarine which would include prediction done years later say in 2020. so it would cost more for same sub
2. S 20 subs are actually quite capable subs and seeing the track records of pak submarines operations they would obviously go for more subs(as they can not match indian surface fleets) to tackle india with major blows with subs and get max subs operating at any given time (6 out of 8)
3. These subs have well anti ship capabilities and most probably VLS which could be used to launch cruise missiles
(nuclear armed) or may even be mordanised to carry small ballistic missiles for nuke triad
4. Although china is an all weather friend even then pak wants to learn how to build subs, at cheaper cost, modular design with complete transfer of tech(they can't always buy from china indigenous is always better) plus they can modify it with whatever they want no need to tell china everything.

Although I agree with you that 8 no might be slightly on higher side but still I would say its not a failure

 

[YeBeWarned]

I don't feel the need to address the buffoonery that is some people here. The example of 313 has many lessons, from the love of the prophet to true faith (kaamil Emaan) till Jibrael Ameen came with the Naushad for the win for those pious and infallible true believers. Our ranks remain fallible, and continue to focus on the rituals and not faith.

Who is in Khaith or Khalyan, they know themselves.

Some people hide effectively calling themselves car sales men or other benign titles, so that people don't realize what they are really trying to do here, sometimes successfully. Innocent be aware.

.45 is Used in USA as a side arm, not Pakistan. Anyone who could call Pasha or A. Kayani anything did that how? in person? over the phone? What desktop chivalry is this? pathetic state of self glorification from some sad individual

Any attempts to discuss PN Submarine program is only that someone makes a mistake to divulge highly classified information in emotion, serving the purpose of some people on this forum. Please be aware.

For anyone willing to learn, all or any data about the PN submarine program, acquisition or refurbishment of existing French platforms is highly deceptive by its nature.

To confirm the point of some observers, Submarines are indeed the most potent offensive platforms, as SLOC (Sea Lines of Communication) are the main jugular. They are also true second strike capability, or allow off theatre engagement/deterrence.

Enough said.

Sir this man MK is self centered and have a mentality of " I am greater than All " ... to be honest its hard to even have a to the point discussion with this man .. but surely he look good in " Ignore list " ..

 

[gslv mk3]

It may have already taken place! Just because indians don't know doesn't mean we don't have it. Remember you indians already said that it was IMPOSSIBLE for Pakistan to ever become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance. We know what happened to that indian delusional bollywood fantasy. Just as then so is now

Wishful thinking, I must say.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Wishful thinking, I must say.

Our nuclear weapons program was also "wishful thinking"

 

[gslv mk3]

Our nuclear weapons program was also "wishful thinking"

It wasn't- we had agents on the ground who tracked its progress.

 

[MastanKhan]

PN could also equip the subs with 'tactical nukes' which basically emerge from the water and detonote in the air. Indian flotillas would live in fear of any Pak submarine sighting.

@MastanKhan @Khafee @Naif al Hilali @Sarge @Oscar @Horus @Zarvan @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hi,

Even though I had wanted to use this term since 6 years ago---I have held back.

I did not want them come knocking at my door---. They might---I have done some google search regarding severity of underwater explosions as compared to surface explosions of the same charge.

Sub launched tactical nuc with small yield with sub surface detonation---are devastating---.

The explosive effect is a multiplier effect of maybe 10---20--30 or a 100 times or more----this mean that if you launch it at any other sub----you don't need to hit it---your target---another sub maybe a mile away and the shock wave could crush it.

You would not need to hit a ship---if it exploded deep underneath the keel---it will destroy any large ship---.

I think that is what pak navy need to pursue----small yield torpedoes with nuc tips---.

Joe Buff writes fiction about modern submarine warfare---if you have not read it---take the time---I think there are 4 works of fiction---

https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Sound-Channel-Joe-Buff/dp/0553762885

A lots of information is fancy stuff---but there are gems in it that cannot be overlooked.

A sub surface torpedo nuc capability would make pak navy take on many an opponent---.

 

[Inception-06]

Sir this man MK is self centered and have a mentality of " I am greater than All " ... to be honest its hard to even have a to the point discussion with this man .. but surely he look good in " Ignore list " ..

Don't be childish and grow up learn to handle critic, If you don't like his opinion there is no need for personal offensives AGAINST ANYONE ! Calm done and enjoy the clash of thinkers !

 

[MastanKhan]

The main threat from India is their CBG and brahmos
Acquiring sub's is a great way to go,What we simply need is a BrahMos equivalent.
Second strike capability will automatically be solved.

Hi,

We need a very small yield nuc tipped torpedo----. You don't need to hit the target either---. If it is in a certain proximity---the concussion will crush the object and if your boat is within the crush zone---you too will be---.

 

[Humble Analyst]

Hi,

Thank you for your input---. It is a sad day for a nation when its young and strong don't have a vision or a thinking of their own

Tom Clancy was an insurance sales man---" The Hunt For Red October "was the best seller in 1984----. It is the book that made russian submarine fleet stand ' naked ' & impotent in front of the world---.

Knowledge is available to ONLY THOSE WHO SEEK IT---.

You have only been on this board for 2 1/2 months---I have been writing here for 11 years now----and not a SINGLE strategic issue that I have written about---I have not been proven wrong---. And how I wish that I was---.

Many a superstars have come and gone eating dust---. You know why----because time will tell the truth---and I will be the first one to apologize and accept my mistake.

Give me one historical reference of a major war or a major conflict where one side was busy making battle shields and forgot to make the swords but still won the war---.

very well said Sir.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

It wasn't- we had agents on the ground who tracked its progress.

But yet the indian media, establishment and so-called experts all claimed pre-May 1998 that Pakistan would NEVER EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance. That the West and others would stop it.

How do you know indian agents on the ground right now are not tracking Pakistan's advanced strategic weapons program? Perhaps they are and are fully aware of Pakistan's REAL capabilities. Which is why india was powerless to attack Pakistan militarily after mumbai 2008. Even though Pakistan is more than 7x smaller than india and doesn't have abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems developed by the West and Russia

 

[gslv mk3]

But yet the indian media, establishment and so-called experts all claimed pre-May 1998 that Pakistan would NEVER EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance. That the West and others would stop it.

No they didn't. Pakistan did even try to threaten us with a nuclear strike during the operation brasstacks, remember ?

Perhaps they are and are fully aware of Pakistan's REAL capabilities. Which is why india was powerless to attack Pakistan militarily after mumbai 2008.

Meh. What you have is warheads up to 50 kt. Don't claim that you have developed Tsar bomba.

 

[Chhatrapati]

But yet the indian media, establishment and so-called experts all claimed pre-May 1998 that Pakistan would NEVER EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance. That the West and others would stop it.

How do you know indian agents on the ground right now are not tracking Pakistan's advanced strategic weapons program? Perhaps they are and are fully aware of Pakistan's REAL capabilities. Which is why india was powerless to attack Pakistan militarily after mumbai 2008. Even though Pakistan is more than 7x smaller than india and doesn't have abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems developed by the West and Russia

 

[Humble Analyst]

You know Mr Mastan Sahab, your Post make me Laugh and piss off at the same time ..
the bigger question is if our nation is so doomed by its forces than why are you so upset about ? its not your country is it ? you are living in US and probably are Citizen of America, you may even bleed red white and blue .. so why don't you let us Bleed Green and White in Peace ??

can't argue with the Quote ..

I have been following your posts and including the discussions you have had with some of the Senior members here, and as you claimed that i am new here so i am not supposed to be biased , so Oscar is not my Phuppi ka larka , nor Bilal khan is my distant cousin and neither you are my eternal Enemy .. so i never saw your post based on anything Factual or Proved Documents and if you ever post some to back your claims please Do Tag this Newbie so that i can learn something new i am always up for it ...

Bilal Khan as give you the example of Battle of Badr , now i won't compare the Army of Pakistan to those Blessed 313 people who are not just Poorly equipped but they don't even have a Proper Strategy to Fight .. but i really wonder if our Prophet on the battle ground or while sitting in his tent undermine the motivation of his troops by calling them Corrupt and Former pagan's .. but you seems to be Disturb because you are far and have nothing to do most probably , and by sitting in some 80+ oldie's gang who share their weird stories after 2 shots of red wine you take their words to be Gospel Truth .. I can't really help that ..

Emotional outburst is what I can say about the above post. What happened in Ghazwa e Uhad? In Ghazwa e Khandaq it was planning and preparation. All he is saying be prepared. Looks like you cannot take it. He is away from land but cares about it. Can you appreciate it? One does not need to be an expert to understand certain things. It is what you study in Military history, by reading. All of that may not be accurate, yet people who want to improve are not afraid of criticism.
I do not understand how an AESA radar works but understand enough to know we need it. I do not know a lot but understand Rafale is a very good multirole plane and as an interceptor it is just below F22, Eurofighter and in the league of better aircraft. Our defensive Air Force and Navy has problems. Due to the lack of strategic depth and geography of our sea waters we need offensive weapons for defense. If I have hurt your feelings I will not apologize, you can think that I am drinking red wine in USA and criticizing Pakistani forces strategy. Man that is a crime, have some tolerance and look deeper Sir.

 

[Humble Analyst]

It feels better to live with little Light, than dying in the darkness ! It's not 1971, today there are so many people who are raising their voice against the military, despite the Fact that the Military is undoubtedly the best function institute in our Country, but all I try to say is that if the military or ISPR would focus more on Public communication, maybe they can make these people shut up. BUT THE FACT IS THAT ISPR is lacking in communicating with the people, so all we want, is that the army and our country Pakistan stays as a strong and Respectable even more than it is today, for this we need more transparency, that will never happen(Yahya Khan-->Tikka Khan->General Niazi -> East Pakistan-> a la Bangladesh). So Mr.Khan ( @MastanKhan ) is trying to fill the gap as an EXPERT, AND YOU CAN, OF COURSE, TRY to take the lead in this role rather than on putt off the light. Good that PDF exists, and poor souls get a voice.....Shukar Alhamdulillah !


regards

Agree 100% ISPR and foreign office need to communicate better. There is a lot of room for improvement in communication and it is not restricted to ISPR. All statements should not come from 2 or 3 star general. We should train junior and mid level officers to speak on behalf of the ISPR as per situation.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

No they didn't. Pakistan did even try to threaten us with a nuclear strike during the operation brasstacks, remember ?



Meh. What you have is warheads up to 50 kt. Don't claim that you have developed Tsar bomba.

False. Completely false & wrong. In 1998 the vajpayee government and the indian establishment openly threatened to nuke Pakistan and solve "the Pakistan problem" once and for all as india is a nuclear weapons state and Pakistan is not. And it is impossible that Pakistan will EVER become a nuclear weapons state with or without Chinese assistance. That was the open indian delusional fantasy spouted before Pakistan tested it's nukes.

By the way, here is independent confirmation that Pakistan has the capability to produce H-bombs since at least 2011:

http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...g-nuclear-weapons-time-for-pakistan-to-rever/

Oh dear another little weaner man suffering from "lesser men" syndrome:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6161691.stm