Pakistan Naval Aviation - Updated

[LKJ86]

Our next step should be the 052D.
After the F-22Ps & T-54s, we should start building our own FFGs.

IMO, when PN is ready to buy Type 052D DDG, its production has stopped already.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I hope that along with the local FFG, more Azmat class are produced locally. More importantly, if the local SAM system can be made to work. It's been in development forever.

Pak can only work on so many projects...
...if the economy suffers...so does the R&D budget.

There are projects underway(as per ppl on PDF) for supersonic missile, small nuclear reactor(for a nuclear submarine), a hypersonic missile(just read about it a day or two ago), LRMPA, etc. These are just some of the things...there's probably a lot more. In addition the PN is probably also working on intangible things like PAF did with project vision.

So I think for now if domestic development of a SAM system is on the back burner...it is not too big a setback...
...since Pak would have access to Chinese and Turkish SAM systems.

The critical factor is building real subsystems like the Harbah.

Also a few more issues:

1. There is a huge gap in tonnage between the Azmat and the Yarmouk class. Something should be developed for a class inbetween them. A Corvette rather than jumping from FAC to a Frigate

I thought Yarmouk was a corvette? So the jump from Azmat(FAC) to Yarmouk(Corvette) is fine IMO

2. Rashid Mahmood discussing 052 is surprising for me. This suggests PN is interested in a completely different tragectory than everyone has assumed. It suggests PN is headed to become CPEC policeman in these parts. If 4x 052s come in, size wise Pakistan would become very competitive to the Indian navy.

3. There is such an emphasis on large purchases that the small boats seem to have been left out. Except that @Tipu7 dropped the bombshell of the Midgets. which means small coastal submarines, perhaps locally manufactured.

Personally I would say that once a decent surface fleet and other assets like coastal batteries, MPAs, MALE/HALE, J15s, etc. are in place...
...to ensure Pak's subs aren't vulnerable(as they would be without other assets like surface ships, MPAs, etc)...then Pak should go for more numbers of subs(like more than what a navy of PN's size should have). This heavy emphasis on A2AD would keep IN at a distance and out of Pak waters...ensuring that a blockade can never happen again. If they do dare to enter then they will have to face PN's own surface fleet, threat of J15s, coastal defenses(if they get near), and lots of lurking subs.

 

[Armchair]

Pak can only work on so many projects...
...if the economy suffers...so does the R&D budget.

There are projects underway(as per ppl on PDF) for supersonic missile, small nuclear reactor(for a nuclear submarine), a hypersonic missile(just read about it a day or two ago), LRMPA, etc. These are just some of the things...there's probably a lot more. In addition the PN is probably also working on intangible things like PAF did with project vision.

So I think for now if domestic development of a SAM system is on the back burner...it is not too big a setback...
...since Pak would have access to Chinese and Turkish SAM systems.

I thought Yarmouk was a corvette? So the jump from FAC(Azmat) to Yarmouk(Corvette) is fine IMO

Personally I would say that once a decent surface fleet and other assets like coastal batteries, MPAs, MALE/HALE, J15s, etc. are in place...
...to ensure Pak's subs aren't vulnerable(as they would be without other assets like surface ships, MPAs, etc)...then Pak should go for more numbers of subs(like more than what a navy of PN's size should have). This heavy emphasis on A2AD would keep IN at a distance and out of Pak waters...ensuring that a blockade can never happen again. If they do dare to enter then they will have to face PN's own surface fleet, threat of J15s, coastal defenses(if they get near), and lots of lurking subs.

I personally would classify it closer to a light frigate with 2500-2700 tons when all is said and done to it. 500 tons to 2500 tons is a big jump.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

I hope that along with the local FFG, more Azmat class are produced locally. More importantly, if the local SAM system can be made to work. It's been in development forever.

The critical factor is building real subsystems like the Harbah.

Also a few more issues:

1. There is a huge gap in tonnage between the Azmat and the Yarmouk class. Something should be developed for a class inbetween them. A Corvette rather than jumping from FAC to a Frigate.

2. Rashid Mahmood discussing 052 is surprising for me. This suggests PN is interested in a completely different tragectory than everyone has assumed. It suggests PN is headed to become CPEC policeman in these parts. If 4x 052s come in, size wise Pakistan would become very competitive to the Indian navy.

3. There is such an emphasis on large purchases that the small boats seem to have been left out. Except that @Tipu7 dropped the bombshell of the Midgets. which means small coastal submarines, perhaps locally manufactured.

It is my personal opinion and nothing to do with PN.

However, it should not be surprising at all. Having built the F22Ps and then Milgems, logically PN should move towards building it's very own FFGs, which has been on he design table for some time.

PN has operated Gearing and Brooke DDGs in the past, so acquiring the 052D is nothing out of the blue.

IN has Dehli Class and Kolkata Class DDGs, and we have to be prepared to defend against them.

IMO, when PN is ready to buy Type 052D DDG, its production has stopped already.

We do not buy OTS vessels.
We modify them to our own requirements.

When the time comes, we will see.

 

[Falcon26]

Pak can only work on so many projects...
...if the economy suffers...so does the R&D budget.

There are projects underway(as per ppl on PDF) for supersonic missile, small nuclear reactor(for a nuclear submarine), a hypersonic missile(just read about it a day or two ago), LRMPA, etc. These are just some of the things...there's probably a lot more. In addition the PN is probably also working on intangible things like PAF did with project vision.

So I think for now if domestic development of a SAM system is on the back burner...it is not too big a setback...
...since Pak would have access to Chinese and Turkish SAM systems.

I thought Yarmouk was a corvette? So the jump from FAC(Azmat) to Yarmouk(Corvette) is fine IMO

Personally I would say that once a decent surface fleet and other assets like coastal batteries, MPAs, MALE/HALE, J15s, etc. are in place...
...to ensure Pak's subs aren't vulnerable(as they would be without other assets like surface ships, MPAs, etc)...then Pak should go for more numbers of subs(like more than what a navy of PN's size should have). This heavy emphasis on A2AD would keep IN at a distance and out of Pak waters...ensuring that a blockade can never happen again. If they do dare to enter then they will have to face PN's own surface fleet, threat of J15s, coastal defenses(if they get near), and lots of lurking subs.

I remember around Musharraf era, it was revealed by a senior member on Pakdef that Pakistan was working on a naval nuclear reactor. I am not sure what the status of that project is today or whether it has been shelved.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I remember around Musharraf era, it was revealed by a senior member on Pakdef that Pakistan was working on a naval nuclear reactor. I am not sure what the status of that project is today or whether it has been shelved.

I'd wager the project is ongoing, but it'll be a while before they can use it in a submarine. IMHO a miniature reactor for a submarine is about as complex as reactor design work can get, especially with safety, mitigating acoustics, etc all being key factors. If they're serious about this, they may have to go through several design generations before they'll have a serviceable system.

 

[Cookie Monster]

I remember around Musharraf era, it was revealed by a senior member on Pakdef that Pakistan was working on a naval nuclear reactor. I am not sure what the status of that project is today or whether it has been shelved.

Probably going on still...on and off
...I assume during Zardari era funding must have dried up as it did for a lot of things. However according to Rafi(relatively recently) it's moving along...so things are probably progressing again. I think it's moving at that pace bcuz there's no hurry right now.

IMO Pak is developing it in parallel to other capabilities. It would be useless to have it ready while other pieces are not ready.
- One of these key pieces would be submarine building capability. I think the Hangor class order of submarines is supposed to provide that for Pak...if I recall correctly 4 of those 8 will be built in Pak.
- SLCM relatively recently demonstrated...which is a key piece if a SSGN is to be developed.
- For a SSBN...IMO the only way it is truly worthwhile is with ICBMs on board. This way it can be hiding anywhere in the world and still strike the enemy while being far from reach. In that case Pak doesn't yet have an ICBM...which would further have to be developed into an SLBM. This will take time...and can probably also be developed in parallel. MIRV is being developed...which is helpful for submarine based ICBMs(especially now and more so in the future as India is building more and more of its Air Defense assets).

So I think by the time some of these other capabilities are ready...the reactor should be roughly ready. The last of the 8 Hangor submarines are supposed to be delivered by 2028 I think. So Pak has probably another 10-15 years for this reactor and other pieces to be ready...and converge into a true second strike capability.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

IN has Dehli Class and Kolkata Class DDGs, and we have to be prepared to defend against them.

Dehli, Kolkata and Rajput Class. In future the most advanced ones Visakhapatnam Destroyers will be there too

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

I'd wager the project is ongoing, but it'll be a while before they can use it in a submarine. IMHO a miniature reactor for a submarine is about as complex as reactor design work can get, especially with safety, mitigating acoustics, etc all being key factors. If they're serious about this, they may have to go through several design generations before they'll have a serviceable system.

The new Hangor Class Sub may be the test vehicle.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

PN has operated Gearing and Brooke DDGs in the past, so acquiring the 052D is nothing out of the blue.

Both Brooks and Garcia class were essentially Frigates but designated initially as destroyer escorts.

Gearings of FRAMM programs were also DE's.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Both Brooks and Garcia class were essentially Frigates but designated initially as destroyer escorts.

Gearings of FRAMM programs were also DE's.

I have served on both of them.

 

[air marshal]

https://falcons.pk/photo/Westland-WS-61-Sea-King-MK45/2368

 

[bananarepublic]

I have served on both of them.

Would love to hear you experience on them and your role on those ships

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

We do not buy OTS vessels.
We modify them to our own requirements.

When the time comes, we will see.

China has recently restarted the production of the Type 054A for the PLAN.

Maybe the production of the Type 052DL will keep going until after 2030.

Only the original Type 052D has been no longer in production.

 

[Armchair]

If Pakistan can:
1. Learn how to design and build ships
2. Build some key components like a SAM system and AShMs

Pakistan should not thereafter import more ships unless at bargain basement prices. Rather, Pakistan should develop:

1. A Jinnah Class in the 3000 ton range
2. A new corvette in the 1000-1500 ton range
3. An enlarged Azmat class in the 600 ton range
4. 500 ton range submarine

Support these with a powerfule LRMPA fleet and en even more powerful PN-AF with a fighter with decent numbers.

This setup takes care of virtually all threat scenarios.

Additionally, Pakistan should invest in an under-water detection system local to Pakistan's shores - small scale SOSUS which is what NATO and the Chinese have done. Makes detection of enemy submarines a lot less problematic than having tons of frigates, submarines and LRMPA.

Finally, a SAR satellite would be an added bonus.