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Pakistan Issues Demarche to US over Drone Strikes - US Argues Strikes Legal

Where exactly is the 'legal' argument/justification for the drone strikes in his comments?

Pakistan has offered:

1. To conduct drone strikes itself if provided the technology
2. Joint drone strikes with the US with both Pakistani and US officials involved in the targeting and authorization of the strikes
3. Strikes by the PAF, in case of US reluctance to provide drones to Pakistan, based on intelligence provided by the US

So in light of the above proposals by Pakistan, what 'legality' do unilateral US drone strikes, in the absence of any official authorization by the GoP, or sanction by the UN, have?

Brennan is talking out of his rear-end and trying to obfuscate the issue and paint patently illegal and counter-productive US drone strikes as something that they are not.

it's ''legal'' because the Pakistani government is fully backing and supporting the stikes....''demarches'' and ''official protests'' are just a white-wash. Professional liars.


Killing 3 or 4 low level militants here or there is not going to put a dent in the insurgency. A strike to take out leadership of a group might be justifiable and actually make an impact in the war, but the majority of the drone strikes have taken out low level militant 'cannon fodder' - recruits who will be easily replaced by others.

because decade + deep into their longest war in history, the Americans still don't understand the psyche of their enemy or what exactly they are pitted against

you can't fight people of a certain ideology and a certain type of thinking with bullets alone.....In Pakistan, our forces have learned COIN while on the job. We havent perfected it, but we've had many successes. The American military machine is simply trained to kill. They have no idea - even to this day (incredibly) - that their presence in Afghanistan has radicalized a segment of the population - not just in Afghanistan but in Pakistan too. Thats the undeniable reality. You simply can't win Afghanistan if you are perceived even by 40 or 50% of the population as ''occupiers'' -- history has shown this SEVERAL times. History is just repeating itself again.


killing an ideology doesnt come through whacking a few bearded fundamentalists wearing torn sandals and clutching an AK
 
They should at least physically slap Munter after each drone strike. Summon him, slap him and let him go. To make it all legit, Zardari should have Asifa slap him and then blame it on "Teenagers, what can you do about em?"

Aur toh kuch karte nahi hain, chapair hi laga doh.

brother why Zardari ?? Zardari or any person don't capable nor authroity to do anything in Pakistan without this PAKISTAN MILITARY who is Fasaad ke jar of everything in Pakistan in 1960s 1980s and 99-2007... destroy this whole nation...

Why this army wait for the so called ZARDARI order ??? This army took oath "We here to DEFEND Pakistan" Thats it .... why this army wait for Zardari order ?? what a lame excuse by this military ???? what a JOKE both American Govt and Military and Pakistan govt and Military!
 
They should at least physically slap Munter after each drone strike. Summon him, slap him and let him go. To make it all legit, Zardari should have Asifa slap him and then blame it on "Teenagers, what can you do about em?"

Aur toh kuch karte nahi hain, chapair hi laga doh.

I assume you must be talking figuratively, for advocating or contemplating a physical assault on a diplomatic representative would not meet the standards of any civilized sovereign nation, and a nuclear one at that, and even then not a good thing to say.
 
Islamabad should be thankful to them for cleaning off their back-yard.

militants have been killed but when innocents are killed, it creates more enemies and more headache for Pakistan

if US Admin is to be believed and the Americans are safer - well good for them. But they're instrumental in creating more enemies for Pakistan. Truth is, Pakistan is caught between a rock and a hard place at present. That's more so to do with the inept leadership than anything else, but NATO's presence has certainly been a destablizing factor for Pakistan -which is why we warned them in 2001 that invading Afghanistan had more cons than it did pros. They didn't listen, now they are dealing with the effects of it (in financial terms and in terms of soldiers being killed, as well as soldiers returning home limbless and mentally scarred)
 
They should at least physically slap Munter after each drone strike. Summon him, slap him and let him go. To make it all legit, Zardari should have Asifa slap him and then blame it on "Teenagers, what can you do about em?"

Aur toh kuch karte nahi hain, chapair hi laga doh.
Yes! at least it will be best option for Ghaddari to let his teenager kidz slap the hell out of Mr. Munter......That would be excellent. The next day the President house will be struck to ashes with the drones.Its a good idea to get rid of Ghaddari this way...:D
 
It's not right that Pakistanis should be kept in the dark as to why their nation is held in equal regard as a flock of geese that keeps polluting the local pond.

My sympathies to the American tax-payer that has been kept in the dark just weeks following the 9/11 terror attacks. Their own liberties have been trampled upon, their holy Constitution has at times been held in abeyyance, many of them are now wondering when their losses in Afghanistan will be cut. If Pakistani Nation is polluting ''local pond'' well it seems then by that logic that American-backed NATO are polluting oceans and the atmosphere. It was the U.S. under the previous regime that waged war on a sovereign country based on a pack of lies and deception. You can not wish that reality away. In fact, it was the ''free world'' that helped create the taleban enemy you are fighting today.

you can bury things under the rug, but the rug wont sit flatly and evenly on the ground


curiously, the U.S. has relied so much on this nation of pond-polluting geese and will soon be running to Pakistan when they realize that all other ''avenues'' have been exhausted

but I don't think that Army got b@llz to shoot them on their own....it shold be a unanimous decision by the elected democratic govt of the country......:smokin:

Fmr PAF Air Marshal made it clear that shooting down drones can be done......give the orders, they'll be shot down. Without orders, unilateral action can not be taken.

indian surveillance UAV was shot to the ground less than a decade ago, so it isnt that we lack the capability to do so. Onus is on the PM and Parliament to decide the course of action.
 
You forget that the drone strikes ARE legally sanctioned by the U.N. under UNSC 1373. I've made this point many times: because it's a Chapter VII Resolution Pakistan has the sovereign obligation to eliminate terror havens, terror operations, and terror-training camps from territory under its control; Pakistan demonstrably doesn't act to do so in particular areas, therefore it has no sovereign complaints about actions other nations undertake against terrorists in these areas.

It's pretty ironclad and the wonder is not that the U.S. President has complained but that the U.N. Secretary-General hasn't publicly done so. (He did so privately after 26/11.)

UNSC 1373

Please point me to the para where the world or the UN allows drone strikes, or any other sort of strikes, as legal sanctions. Or find me the resolution that does, if it exists!

The US Intelligence (read CIA) does not always release information on the position of the militant in the command chain of the targeted group. Any such holeup could involve the presence of a mid-level to top-level commander along with the group who might have been wounded in the strike, information which is not privy to us. Previous such operations have taken out Tahir Yuldashev, Baiitullah Mehsud, Qari Muhammad Zafar, Ilyas Kashmiri etc. and in many cases the top leadership were present along with mid rung members of their group.

I would say, the more people are made to lie low, the more jumpy they get. Drones are the perfect way to put them in that Catch-22 mode. Your own military leadership acknowledges the fear of drones that have been put into these terrorists.

A wise person knows when to speak and when to stay quite. You are obviously not a wise person. Leaving out the others, Mehsud was indeed taken out by a drone strike, but only because of some very clever work by ISI as ISI used CIA to fire an American missile from an American drone on to an American super agent working against Pakistan for America!

You can write a novel or make a movie out of it. Even today ISI can get the better of CIA and that's just beautiful.
 
An excellent dissection of Brennan's arguments by Ejaz Haider:

Brennan’s legal realpolitik!

By Ejaz Haider
Published: May 1, 2012

The writer is a senior journalist and has held several editorial positions including most recently at The Friday Times. He was a Ford Scholar at UIUC, a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution

In the first public defence of Obama Administration’s use of armed Remotely Piloted Vehicles (RPVs), President Obama’s Assistant for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism, John Brennan, gave a 6545-word talk at the Woodrow Wilson Centre for Scholars in Washington DC on April 30, calling their use legal and ethical.

Brennan’s defence came on the heels of a two-day conference in the same city convened by human rights groups and legal charities opposing the use of drones.

Brennan exposited at length, as the wordage should indicate. He spoke of legalities, ethics and the wisdom of drone usage in an environment fraught with operational imperatives and perceived threats to the US. It is an attempt to construct a legal-ethical argument to fit the US’ conduct of war and to prove that the US is being very careful because “we despise war” and because “we are establishing precedents that other nations may follow”. [NB: a brilliant essay on how law is made to serve the purposes of force was panned by Harvard law professor David Kennedy some years ago in his book, Of War and Law.]

Two ideas may be put on the table right away. One is about sequencing. There should be no confusion that law follows force in the interactive dynamic between the two. Second is about the conduct of war itself: legal regimes since the Geneva Conventions may not allow states the “liberty of bloody hand” as Henry V had before the gates of Harfleur, but neither would they let legal niceties prevent their freedom of action when they perceive security to be scarce.

In 2005, the Brookings Institution undertook a project, Force and Legitimacy in the Evolving International System, seeking to “develop cooperative strategies … that will meet the twin tests of legitimacy and effectiveness and provide a meaningful alternative to unilateralism or institutional paralysis”. As part of one of the rounds, I was fascinated by the painstaking effort by American strategists to overcome the existing legal binds. Of particular interest was the attempt by Edward Luck, a Columbia professor, to unlock Article (2) 4, fourth of the seven guiding principles of the UN, through a paper titled: “Article 2(4) on the Non-Use of Force: What Were We Thinking”.

Over the years we have witnessed many more such attempts, devising multilateral frameworks that, while attempting to bind other states in cooperative strategies, should retain for the US its freedom of unilateral action. This is of course a topic on which much can be, and has been, written. For our purposes, however, this is enough for a quick look at Brennan’s defence.
Here are the salient features:

US use of drones is legal because “The Authorization for Use of Military Force — the AUMF —passed by Congress after the September 11 attacks authorises the president ‘to use all necessary and appropriate force’ against those nations, organisations and individuals responsible for 9/11.” [NB: the authorisation does not list ‘States’.]

It is also legal because “As a matter of international law, the United States is in an armed conflict with al Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces … and we may also use force consistent with our inherent right of national self-defence. There is nothing in international law that bans the use of remotely piloted aircraft for this purpose or that prohibits us from using lethal force against our enemies outside of an active battlefield, at least when the country involved consents or is unable or unwilling to take action against the threat.”

Wrong on both counts. Domestic law cannot override accepted principles of international law or customary state practice, especially the principle of non-intervention. Doing so is an exercise of power, not law. Two, nothing in international law or the UNSC legal regime on terrorism allows State X to operate on the territory of State Y unless the latter expressly permits such action. Therefore, the issue of “unable or unwilling” does not arise as grounds for unilateral determination and action. Nor can such be determined by another state through its own estimation because any action flowing from such unilateralism cannot be subjected to a limiting principle, i.e., there will be no limit to what a powerful state could do to weaker states.

Brennan also defended the use of drones on the principles of necessity, distinction, proportionality and humanity and gave reasons for why such use is wise. The problem with his framework is that the operation of these “principles” — and these factors are essentially operational, not foundational — becomes relevant only after it has been determined that it is indeed legal for a state to use drones (or force) in the manner that the US has done so far and which scores of experts deem to be illegal because it is unilateral and violates the basic principle of non-intervention. In other words, the necessity, distinction, proportionality and humanity of weapon system X as opposed to Y becomes a relevant defence or debate only after the legality of the conflict in which it is to be used and the manner of such usage has been accepted.

As it stands, the problems of who decides what is necessary, through what process and in what manner remain unresolved. The very “humane” targeting method that Brennan has outlined can be deemed legal only if it can be determined to be such by a process that separates the judge, jury and the executioner through external scrutiny. That is automatically precluded by the very requirement of secrecy.

Also, while Brennan spoke specifically of targeted strikes, he didn’t say a word about ‘signature’ strikes, a rather interesting omission.

Finally, Brennan knows well, or should know, the moral hazard that attends preemption and increases manifold as prevention is invoked. No one knows what attacks are being conjured up and preempted and how much of these threats lie in the realm of fantastic scenarios.

Having said this, the final arbiter of this conflict and what a state can do to prevent another state from violating its sovereignty is a function of power, not law. History, ultimately, is the logic of might and the grey area where law and politics interact normally resolves itself in favour of the latter.

Published in The Express Tribune, May 2nd, 2012.
Brennan
 
US: Hey you are having terrorist safe haven in NW and they are attacking us in Afghanistan, act on it.
Pakistan Army: We do not have the capacity to deal with them, we are already stretched.
US: In that case can we use our force to help you
Pakistan Army: Our public will not like it, we will have backlash
US: Well can we use drones?
Pakistan Army: Why not, we will also give you air bases inside Pakistan.

This is how it all started and now you are talking about illegality.
 
Change it slightly to the following:
US: Hey you are having terrorist safe haven in NW and they are attacking us in Afghanistan, act on it.
Pakistan Army: We do not have the capacity to deal with them, we are already stretched.
US: In that case can we use our force to help you
Pakistan Army: Our public will not like it, we will have backlash. Provide us the drones and we will do it
US: NO
Pakistan Army: Well, lets operate the drones jointly and share intelligence
US: NO
Pakistan Army: Well, provide us the intelligence, and we will use the PAF (F-16's etc) with PGM's to target suspects
US: NO

So yes, the drones are illegal and Pakistan is correctly talking about illegality.
 
US: Hey you are having terrorist safe haven in NW and they are attacking us in Afghanistan, act on it.
Pakistan Army: We do not have the capacity to deal with them, we are already stretched.
US: In that case can we use our force to help you
Pakistan Army: Our public will not like it, we will have backlash
US: Well can we use drones?
Pakistan Army: Why not, we will also give you air bases inside Pakistan.

This is how it all started and now you are talking about illegality.


its irrelevant because the Afghans never invited the NATOs to invade their country.....the insurgency exists for a reason. Pakistan is just being scape-goated due to their failure-after-failure to secure anything outside of Kabul (which even that, they are having trouble defending from attacks)
 
Change it slightly to the following:


So yes, the drones are illegal and Pakistan is correctly talking about illegality.

Let me further edit it a bit:

US: Hey you are having terrorist safe haven in NW and they are attacking us in Afghanistan, act on it.
Pakistan Army: Let us mine the AfPak Border, we do not consider the NW region to be safe havens for anti US operators but if that's what you think then mining the border will ensure nobody crosses over (from either side)
US: No, we don't want you to mine the border. Send your Army to NW region or we will send drones there.
Pakistan Army: Our public will not like it, we will have backlash. Provide us the drones and we will do it
US: NO
Pakistan Army: Well, lets operate the drones jointly and share intelligence
US: NO
Pakistan Army: Well, provide us the intelligence, and we will use the PAF (F-16's etc) with PGM's to target suspects
US: NO

its irrelevant because the Afghans never invited the NATOs to invade their country.....the insurgency exists for a reason. Pakistan is just being scape-goated due to their failure-after-failure to secure anything outside of Kabul (which even that, they are having trouble defending from attacks)

We are a scape goat even more so because today, we are unable and unwilling to defend ourselves from bullying and terrorism of the US.
 
Please point me to the para where the world or the UN allows drone strikes, or any other sort of strikes -
Yes, sir!

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

1. Decides that all States shall:

(a) Prevent and suppress the financing of terrorist acts...

(d) Prohibit their nationals or any persons and entities within their territories
from making any funds, financial assets or economic resources or financial or other
related services available, directly or indirectly, for the benefit of persons who
commit or attempt to commit or facilitate or participate in the commission of
terrorist acts, of entities owned or controlled, directly or indirectly, by such persons
and of persons and entities acting on behalf of or at the direction of such persons;

2. Decides also that all States shall:

(a) Refrain from providing any form of support, active or passive, to entities
or persons involved in terrorist acts, including by suppressing recruitment of
members of terrorist groups and eliminating the supply of weapons to terrorists;

(b) Take the necessary steps to prevent the commission of terrorist acts,
including by provision of early warning to other States by exchange of information;

(c) Deny safe haven to those who finance, plan, support, or commit terrorist
acts, or provide safe havens;

(d) Prevent those who finance, plan, facilitate or commit terrorist acts from
using their respective territories for those purposes against other States or their
citizens;

(e) Ensure that any person who participates in the financing, planning,
preparation or perpetration of terrorist acts or in supporting terrorist acts is brought
to justice -


Pakistan hasn't fulfilled these obligations. It's a Chapter VII resolution so that means it is a binding sovereign obligation - a new provision in international law. Failure to comply => no sovereignty with regards to the subject of the resolution.

So areas of Pakistan where the State chooses not to battle terrorists are, in international law, an open battlefield under nobody's sovereignty at all. That's why the U.S. can use whatever weapons and tactics and troops it wants in these areas.

I suspect the reason why this so offends Pakistanis is that your society is deeply corrupt. It is the mark of corrupt societies that officials see their duties as optional, not obligatory: they accept payoffs for doing or not doing their job. By demanding compliance without compensation the U.S. and U.N. are, in effect, denying Pakistani officials the job perk they've grown to expect. And since, according to Western writer Anatoly Lieven, every Pakistani who attains a position of responsibility abuses it, this attitude pervades the populace at large as well.
 
And since, according to Western writer Anatoly Lieven, every Pakistani who attains a position of responsibility abuses it, this attitude pervades the populace at large as well.

haha you are funny Solomon, looks like that Western writer is talking about corporate America and other people in power in America
but you chose to apply that comment on on us guys, we are no where near you

US: Hey you are having terrorist safe haven in NW and they are attacking us in Afghanistan, act on it.
Pakistan Army: We do not have the capacity to deal with them, we are already stretched.
US: In that case can we use our force to help you
Pakistan Army: Our public will not like it, we will have backlash
US: Well can we use drones?
Pakistan Army: Why not, we will also give you air bases inside Pakistan.

This is how it all started and now you are talking about illegality.

summed up well
 
haha you are funny Solomon, looks like that Western writer is talking about corporate America and other people in power in America
I truly wish you could be more convincing.

(My review of Lieven's book is posted here: link)
 
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