Pakistan Issues Demarche to US over Drone Strikes - US Argues Strikes Legal

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

My point was that no alternative other than effective governance will reduce the collateral damage from drone attacks, no matter who pushes the button, unless you wish to present some suggestions as to how 1, 2, or 3 above prevent that.

1, 2 and 3 reduce collateral damage because they provide Pakistani oversight of drone strikes, which would likely mean an end to 'signature strikes' that have often resulted in the deaths of civilians - For example, the drone strike authorized by Panetta, despite the objections of Ambassador Munter, after Raymond Davis was released ended up killing dozens of innocent tribal leaders. Pakistani oversight would have prevented that strike since the PA/ISI would have known that the intelligence was flawed.

What you are saying is that it is okay for Pakistan to kill the same proportion of civilians to militants while condemning the US for doing so. Why should the suggestions above not be regarded as a way to gain access to highly classified US technologies under the garb of offering "alternatives" that are really the same thing??

I am saying no such thing - I believe the PA/GoP would value the lives of Pakistanis far more than the US does, as has been seen by the trigger happy attitude of US troops and spies in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[VCheng]

1, 2 and 3 reduce collateral damage because they provide Pakistani oversight of drone strikes, ................I believe the PA/GoP would value the lives of Pakistanis far more than the US does, as has been seen by the trigger happy attitude of US troops and spies in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yes, those are merely personal opinions how your proposed alternatives could reduce civilian casualties if Pakistani "oversight" and intelligence are trustworthy. Then again, they may not. That unproven conjecture has to be weighed against the real risks of sharing the classified technologies involved that have many uses beyond the present campaign.

And besides #3: PAF Airstrikes based on US & PAK Intel would be very likely even more indiscriminate than drone strikes! How does that correlate to the PA/GoP "valuing" the lives of Pakistanis more than the US?

 

[Solomon2]

I totally agree with U my brothr but what U have to do if somebody is pointing a gun at ure head and U can't do anything to save ure life but to obey their demandz......this is the situation here we poor and weak country are being pointed Gun at us -

You're being forced to comment here?!

 

[regular]

You're being forced to comment here?!

I'm trying to tell the truth for real. U have the choice not to believe.Logically Smart ppl never take no chances cuz they don't want to meet the same fate like the Navy seals of the OBL raid..

 

[Solomon2]

I'm trying to tell the truth for real -

I think you're really trying to tell me something else. I'm so sorry. I suppose you must feel totally frustrated and that it's useless to take an honest stand. Yet people have done just that in the past...

In his book Fear No Evil Natan Sharansky tells the story of how, while a Soviet political prisoner, another inmate approached him and confessed that he was a KGB informant. (The informant felt safe doing so because everybody knew that Sharansky had nothing to do with the KGB.) The informant wanted to escape the KGB's clutches. Escaping the KGB was hard enough in "freedom" but how could one do it in a prison camp?

Sharansky got together as many prisoners as he could and his young friend made a public confession, supplying every detail he could. That severely damaged the local KGB network, of course. But because the KGB worked secretly there wasn't much they could do to punish their very public former informant; if they touched him that would only serve as confirmation of his account. So the young man went back to being a prisoner like the others; he sacrificed his special foods and cigarettes to clear his conscience.

Ex-Soviet Spy "Viktor Suvorov" confirms the method in his books: if you want to denounce tyranny it must be exposed as publicly as possible. Doing so robs tyranny of its power of secrecy and even initiative.

 

[regular]

I think you're really trying to tell me something else. I'm so sorry. I suppose you must feel totally frustrated and that it's useless to take an honest stand. Yet people have done just that in the past...

In his book Fear No Evil Natan Sharansky tells the story of how, while a Soviet political prisoner, another inmate approached him and confessed that he was a KGB informant. (The informant felt safe doing so because everybody knew that Sharansky had nothing to do with the KGB.) The informant wanted to escape the KGB's clutches. Escaping the KGB was hard enough in "freedom" but how could one do it in a prison camp?

Sharansky got together as many prisoners as he could and his young friend made a public confession, supplying every detail he could. That severely damaged the local KGB network, of course. But because the KGB worked secretly there wasn't much they could do to punish their very public former informant; if they touched him that would only serve as confirmation of his account. So the young man went back to being a prisoner like the others; he sacrificed his special foods and cigarettes to clear his conscience.

Ex-Soviet Spy "Viktor Suvorov" confirms the method in his books: if you want to denounce tyranny it must be exposed as publicly as possible. Doing so robs tyranny of its power of secrecy and even initiative.

Excellent bro!Excellent!... Thats what every poor person is trying to do here nowadayz exposing everything....trying to bringout the revolution here and all over the world to save the poor innocent humans from the deception of evilz.......

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes, those are merely personal opinions how your proposed alternatives could reduce civilian casualties if Pakistani "oversight" and intelligence are trustworthy. Then again, they may not. That unproven conjecture has to be weighed against the real risks of sharing the classified technologies involved that have many uses beyond the present campaign.

What is proven is that 'signature drone strikes' have resulted in the massacres of innocents, as in the example provided. Any degree of greater control and any degree of more information (in this case controls and information/intelligence provided by Pakistan) would decrease, not inccrease, the collateral damage that is currently inflicted in the absence of such information and controls.

US paranoia over sharing technology is not a valid excuse for refusing to implement the proposed alternatives that would reduce the deaths of innocents in drone strikes, not to mention that one of the proposed alternatives, joint drone strikes, would require the presence of both US and Pakistani personnel which in turn would eliminate any chance of the drones or associated hardware being taken apart or shared with the Chinese etc.

And besides #3: PAF Airstrikes based on US & PAK Intel would be very likely even more indiscriminate than drone strikes! How does that correlate to the PA/GoP "valuing" the lives of Pakistanis more than the US?

I don't see how they would be more indiscriminate - strikes using PGM's would be limited to areas where there would be no damage done to nearby structures or passersby.

 

[VCheng]

............

US paranoia over sharing technology is not a valid excuse for refusing to implement the proposed alternatives that would reduce the deaths of innocents in drone strikes, not to mention that one of the proposed alternatives, joint drone strikes, would require the presence of both US and Pakistani personnel which in turn would eliminate any chance of the drones or associated hardware being taken apart or shared with the Chinese etc...............

It is not a matter of paranoia, but rather of keeping sensitive technologies secure, and not just from the Chinese, but nearly all other countries. Of course, if Pakistan were to make its case that the benefits of sharing such technology with it would outweigh the potential risks, then perhaps an argument could be made. However, the current environment is decidedly non-conducive to tilting the risk:benefit ratio in the direction that you prefer.

 

[Solomon2]

Excellent bro!Excellent!... Thats what every poor person is trying to do here nowadayz exposing everything....trying to bringout the revolution here and all over the world to save the poor innocent humans from the deception of evilz.......

I know a person who demonstrated against Mubarak and against the Soviets before that. He did these things even when he was the only person in front of the embassy and was derided as a dreamer.

Yet even by people making fun of him he was drawing attention to these issues. Sometimes dreamers inspire the oppressed to hope and act and win their freedom; then they're called visionaries.

Someone who is "in" on the machinations of illicit secrecy can do even more, and faster, by publicly exposing such secrets. Think about it.

 

[regular]

I know a person who demonstrated against Mubarak and against the Soviets before that. He did these things even when he was the only person in front of the embassy and was derided as a dreamer.

Yet even by people making fun of him he was drawing attention to these issues. Sometimes dreamers inspire the oppressed to hope and act and win their freedom; then they're called visionaries.

Someone who is "in" on the machinations of illicit secrecy can do even more, and faster, by publicly exposing such secrets. Think about it.

Yes Exactly!......Some people exposed the secret of CIA connections with the OBL and his group .Thats why they have to hide him and send him to retirement and played the drama of killing him. So many people got death threats and so many people got killed in exposing these secrets....Now at least U know that secret too.....Thanks for that help.....

 

[Solomon2]

Yes Exactly!......Some people exposed the secret of CIA connections with the OBL and his group .Thats why they have to hide him and send him to retirement and played the drama of killing him. So many people got death threats and so many people got killed in exposing these secrets....Now at least U know that secret too.....Thanks for that help.....

I understand that in this message to get the correct meaning I must substitute "ISI" or "agencies" for "CIA".

But it's not enough to wait for others to act, regular. I know the key weakness of the Pakistanis I dealt with in the past: they wanted somebody else do to something that involved initiative and risk rather than stepping forward themselves. Everyone wanted to reap the harvest; nobody wanted to sow a rocky field. This is the mental barrier you have to overcome.

 

[VCheng]

from: US drone attack kills eight in North Waziristan - geo.tv

MIRAMSHAH: At least eight persons were killed and several others injured when a US drone attacked a house in North Waziristan Agency on early Saturday morning, Geo News reported.

According to sources, the unmanned aircraft fired two missiles on a house in Darai Nashtar as a result the house was completely destroyed and eight people were killed and several others wounded.

Four drones were flying in the area after the missile attack as a result rescue work was also delayed.

The identity of those killed could not be ascertained yet.

====================================================

Question: So how does Pakistan increase its leverage to deal with the ongoing drone situation, given that it has already played its trump card of closing NATO ground supply routes?

 

[Shardul.....the lion]

from: US drone attack kills eight in North Waziristan - geo.tv

MIRAMSHAH: At least eight persons were killed and several others injured when a US drone attacked a house in North Waziristan Agency on early Saturday morning, Geo News reported.

According to sources, the unmanned aircraft fired two missiles on a house in Darai Nashtar as a result the house was completely destroyed and eight people were killed and several others wounded.

Four drones were flying in the area after the missile attack as a result rescue work was also delayed.

The identity of those killed could not be ascertained yet.

====================================================

Question: So how does Pakistan increase its leverage to deal with the ongoing drone situation, given that it has already played its trump card of closing NATO ground supply routes?

Is this different second attack on miramshah area?
It must be very difficult to fill in shoes of Pakistani politicians, they have to pacify three fronts
1. civilians demanding stoppage of drone strikes
2. Americans who are getting increasingly aggressive and are not heeding any demands or even a fake apology
3. army with G Kiyani last year proudly proclaiming any drone entering Pakistan will be shot down.

You are right, Pakistan has played its trump card and americans have shown by two drone attacks that they are not concerned of opening of NATO supply route.

 

[Ignited Mind]

Pakistan condemns U.S. drone attacks​

Pakistan has condemned in the strongest terms the U.S. drone attacks in North Waziristan Saturday morning, which killed at least 10 people, the Foreign Ministry said. “Pakistan has consistently maintained that these illegal attacks are a violation of its sovereignty and territorial integrity, and are in contravention of international law,” a Foreign Ministry statement said. Locals said the U.S. spy aircraft fired two missiles on a house at the Darai Nashtar area in North Waziristan early morning. The area is just three kilometers from Afghanistan. The house was completely destroyed in the strike, locals said. Locals said that four U.S. drones were seen flying over the area before and after the attack, which was the third strike in the same region in nearly two months. Rescue work was delayed due to fear of further strikes by the U.S. drones, residents said. Security sources said that suspected militants had been using the house for several months. They said those died belonged to the local Taliban group. They also said that several foreign militants were also staying in the compound at the time of the strike. “It is our considered view that the strategic disadvantages of such attacks far outweigh their tactical advantages, and are therefore, totally counterproductive,” the Foreign Ministry said. Saturday's U.S. drone strike was 12th this year. Data shows that nearly 93 people have been killed in U.S strikes in 2012. Pakistan had summoned a U.S. diplomat for lodging a formal protest when a
strike killed four people on April 30. The Foreign Ministry says that the issue of American drone strikes will be taken up with the U.S. authorities through diplomatic channels both in Islamabad and Washington.

Pakistan condemns U.S. drone attacks | The Nation

 

[Shardul.....the lion]

Kitni baar condemn karoge, ab chod do?


But I sympathize with top politicians of the country, they must be so helpless in such type of situations.