Pakistan interested in Hurkus C Low cost COIN aircraft

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Brazilian Ac need clearance form USA and cost more than jf-17 based on what being quoted to Nigeria about 50 million a piece far more than what lebonan got at 35 million a piece anyway time will tell but based on August 2017 AFM article acm/paf said they will adopt a coin strategy rather than acquiring future generation coin aircraft

Anyway it may be just a rfi and nothing more like LIFT time will tell

Lastly both USA a/c has endurance of more than 8 hours vs tai 4 hours over battle field ??

Yep the cost of importing is going to exceed that of the total cost of flying the JF-17. It's not just the cost of fuel which is a factor but also the cost of securing spare parts and after-sale support. Importing the A-29 or Archangel will cost more to maintain as the parts and services also have be bought off-the-shelf. The JF-17's after sale stuff is localized, right down to Pakistani labour costs and local currency.

However, there is a loose variable in the Hürkuş-C discussion and that is if the PAF opts to buy the Hürkuş-B to replace the T-37 as well. That way you'd have common infrastructure for the two platforms (Hürkuş-B/Hürkuş-C)

I've spoken to a few retired PAF people on the subject and heard both sides from them. One well known person is openly supportive of replacing the T-37 with the Hürkuş-B if the Hürkuş platform is bought with complete local MRO, licensed manufacturing and commercial offsets. Basically the support would have to be localized and PAC will need to be in on the sub-assemblies market for the Hürkuş (like it is for the K-8).

The near-term cost will be higher than more K-8s (due to the up-front of buying a new platform and raising its infrastructure), but the cost savings from using less fuel will compensate in the medium-term, and then accrue real savings over the long-term (which can be recycled into additional flying hours for pilots on the Hürkuş).

Another advocated for the K-8, but with a lightened airframe and lower output turbofan engine (so as to bring the fuel costs down to the level of turboprops). They wanted to see the PAF develop the K-8 further.

Any decision will depend on how much in actual fuel savings the Hürkuş will provide over the K-8.

 

[Army research]

Correct me but I believe that Pakistan's major war on terror as even DG ISPR has said that " no more organized infrastructure of terrorists in Pakistan ". Would it not be futile to waste so much money on coin craft then ? These would be canon fodder in a conventional war, I'd rather support the purchase of more UCAV's and gunships and more R&D to make heavier and diverse UCAV's, we cannot expect to compete in the coin craft market too should we make on considering the amount of competitors.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Correct me but I believe that Pakistan's major war on terror as even DG ISPR has said that " no more organized infrastructure of terrorists in Pakistan ". Would it not be futile to waste so much money on coin craft then ? These would be canon fodder in a conventional war, I'd rather support the purchase of more UCAV's and gunships and more R&D to make heavier and diverse UCAV's, we cannot expect to compete in the coin craft market too should we make on considering the amount of competitors.

OTOH the situation in Afghanistan could push the Army leadership to see COIN as a perennial and recurring issue, one requiring dedicated assets on hand for contingency.

 

[Aasimkhan]

OTOH the situation in Afghanistan could push the Army leadership to see COIN as a perennial and recurring issue, one requiring dedicated assets on hand for contingency.

Our JF17 and K8 are cheaper than COIN aircraft. We must develop these planes and supplement the effort by drones. No new platforms, please.

 

[Basel]

The Turkish T-37s were sought to replace some old PAF T-37s and for spare parts. But at some point, operating very old planes itself becomes very cost prohibitive due to shortage of spare parts and increasing frequency of necessary maintenance and servicing. That's why new trainers are apparently being looked at.

As for why the Hürkuş and not the K-8. As a turboprop the Hürkuş has lower fuel costs than the K-8. If Pakistan decides to buy the Hürkuş with local production of spare parts and local servicing (it's already working on a MRO site for the Pratt & Whitney PT6 engine which powers the Hürkuş), then it may be cheaper to fly than the K-8.

If you're supporting the platform at home, then the lower fuel costs may be an advantage when it comes to training - the cost of dealing with failure/attrition pilots is lower and you can afford them more flying hours before they go on to jets like the K-8.

If the Hürkuş is in place for training with local parts production and MRO, then the infrastructure would be in place to induct the Hürkuş-C with relatively minimal added strain.

Then this bird can be customized for other border patrol roles / agencies like F.C. Rangers, PMSA, Coast Guard, along with primary role in Navy, Army, and Air Force etc.

I had asked this question years back from a paf officer when USAF replaced t-37s with t-6 i.e. A jet with turboprop and Reply was k8 engine as almost as efficient as turbopro and its endurance is also pretty good 4.2 hour with drops so the answer was there is No need to move away from turbofan Honeywell engine base k8 to another nrw trainer which is based on turboprop as far as coin/soin paf is small third world Air Force and cannot be mimicking usaf on every step plus usaf cover the globe paf will be done with fata on year or so or I am not sure where is the source of this news August 2017 AFM article on paf clearly stated it, end of story

http://www.pac.org.pk/k-8

But PAF do need advance basic training bird.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Our JF17 and K8 are cheaper than COIN aircraft. We must develop these planes and supplement the effort by drones. No new platforms, please.

No @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is right JF-17 and K-8 expensive to operate compare to light tuboprop light COIN aircrafts

 

[Aasimkhan]

No @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is right JF-17 and K-8 expensive to operate compare to light tuboprop light COIN aircrafts

And what about the initial investment ? it will take 100 years to recover the initial payment and your already running K8 and JF17 will be neglected

 

[Ultima Thule]

And what about the initial investment ? it will take 100 years to recover the initial payment and your already running K8 and JF17 will be neglected

what do you talking about, i didn't understand you please explain it in simple words

 

[The Accountant]

No @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is right JF-17 and K-8 expensive to operate compare to light tuboprop light COIN aircrafts

OTOH the situation in Afghanistan could push the Army leadership to see COIN as a perennial and recurring issue, one requiring dedicated assets on hand for contingency.

If turbo propeller is required than dont you think developing a UCAV is much more effective and much more cost efficient as well ...

 

[Aasimkhan]

If turbo propeller is required than dont you think developing a UCAV is much more effective and much more cost efficient as well ...

We already have UCAVs and Chinese UCAVs are also much advanced but some one is shoving this COIN aircraft through our throat by force.

 

[Ultima Thule]

If turbo propeller is required than dont you think developing a UCAV is much more effective and much more cost efficient as well ...

yes but weapon load carrying capacity is much less

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If turbo propeller is required than dont you think developing a UCAV is much more effective and much more cost efficient as well ...

Depends. If we are talking about a UCAV with comparable payload to the Hürkuş, then it might not be as cheap (compared to partnering with Turkey on the Hürkuş) than to develop one. Moreover, I'd prefer UCAV development move to jet-powered systems (as dual-drone/LACM) for use across the border.

 

[The Accountant]

Depends. If we are talking about a UCAV with comparable payload to the Hürkuş, then it might not be as cheap (compared to partnering with Turkey on the Hürkuş) than to develop one. Moreover, I'd prefer UCAV development move to jet-powered systems (as dual-drone/LACM) for use across the border.

yes but weapon load carrying capacity is much less

Yes, but we have to design the UCAV as per our need and I agree it will not be cheap but will be cheaper in comparison to Hukus,

I am in favour of drone due to its extremely high loiter time and as a result, they will be really handy in CAS in war time scenario. Horkus can only be feasible if we use it as a trainer as well which I think not possible as we already have super Mashak and K8 and there is little room to insert an advance propeller based trainer between basic trainer and jet trainer ...

What do you guys think ?

 

[Ultima Thule]

Yes, but we have to design the UCAV as per our need and I agree it will not be cheap but will be cheaper in comparison to Hukus,

I am in favour of drone due to its extremely high loiter time and as a result, they will be really handy in CAS in war time scenario. Horkus can only be feasible if we use it as a trainer as well which I think not possible as we already have super Mashak and K8 and there is little room to insert an advance propeller based trainer between basic trainer and jet trainer ...

What do you guys think ?

then we need much more UCAV that we currently haven't

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yes, but we have to design the UCAV as per our need and I agree it will not be cheap but will be cheaper in comparison to Hukus,

I am in favour of drone due to its extremely high loiter time and as a result, they will be really handy in CAS in war time scenario. Horkus can only be feasible if we use it as a trainer as well which I think not possible as we already have super Mashak and K8 and there is little room to insert an advance propeller based trainer between basic trainer and jet trainer ...

What do you guys think ?

I'm not sure it'll be cheaper to develop than to procure the Hurkus. The Turks spent around $200-300 m on the development costs of the Anka, which is a CH-4B or Predator-sized UAV. Something like the CH-5 (closer to Hurkus size) is bound to cost more, better to just import them from China. For actual combat, I don't think many prop-based UAVs will be needed, the emphasis should be on jet-powered UCAVs that can be sent for cross-border strikes.