Pakistan in talks for 4 Ada Class Corvettes, T-129 Helicopters & modernization of agosta fleet

[T-123456]

If it had been me personally, I would have ordered the LF-2400 (or VLS-equipped ship from China). However, the PN apparently decided it needed a corvette without area-wide AAW coverage. That said, STM hasn't actually shown us the PN MILGEM corvette design - I hope we all get a nice surprise.

Maybe its the start of something more,4 ADA class then 2 Istanbul class and who knows 2 TF-2000 class?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Maybe its the start of something more,4 ADA class then 2 Istanbul class and who knows 2 TF-2000 class?

Yep having the Ada would result in key infrastructure for the platform. This would make inducting enlarged Adas - e.g. LF-2400 or I-Class - easier down the road.

 

[British SAS]

Yep having the Ada would result in key infrastructure for the platform. This would make inducting enlarged Adas - e.g. LF-2400 or I-Class - easier down the road.

..Do you have an inkling about the cost of a single Milgem-2 ship? If not, generally speaking would you expect the price between the base and the second version to differ vastly, or slightly? Because I'm guessing the difference will be minimal; additonally consider the disparity being negated by the use of Pakistani subsystems. Which ultimately, is why I can't wrap my head around the purchase of the base version. Thanks.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

..Do you have an inkling about the cost of a single Milgem-2 ship? If not, generally speaking would you expect the price between the base and the second version to differ vastly, or slightly? Because I'm guessing the difference will be minimal; additonally consider the disparity being negated by the use of Pakistani subsystems. Which ultimately, is why I can't wrap my head around the purchase of the base version. Thanks.

If it was just a question of the hull and super structure, I don't think the LF-2400 costs much more than the MILGEM Ada. It's the same design, just a longer hull. The real cost difference would be from the price of buying VLS, MR-SAM and the requisite sensors (e.g. radar), and it's possible that the PN didn't find an affordable package.

 

[British SAS]

If it was just a question of the hull and super structure, I don't think the LF-2400 costs much more than the MILGEM Ada. It's the same design, just a longer hull. The real cost difference would be from the price of buying VLS, MR-SAM and the requisite sensors (e.g. radar), and it's possible that the PN didn't find an affordable package.

Much appreciated. But even then I don't think the disparity would be as acute. I somehow believe it's not as great a deal as previously thought. As you also mentioned, maybe the LF-2400, was perhaps the version to buy. Then again I'm sure the decision was made after much deliberation between the hierarchy; I guess one should just accept the deal, and trust the folks at the helm. Even though dissapointment is the overwhelming feeling at the minute. Thanks.

 

[YeBeWarned]

This Beauty ..

or this cutie ..

 

[mdcp]

Welldone Pakistan and Turkey to collaborate with each other. No need to reinvent wheel and waste time and money.

We must spend on R&D and work closely with China, Turkey, Gulf etc and also must have different platforms and different sources and must not depend solely on any country

 

[jaatki]

The Talwar class is a 4000 tonnes frigate,the ADA class is just a 2400 tonnes corvette.
Not comparable.

If you get aster will you be able to put it on ada class or won't due to ample space?
And you guys were trying your hands on type 54 what happened to it? It can become backbone of your frigates squadron and 3 type 52C's can become a seeding squadron for PN, further more a 100 navy ship would be potent enough for Western naval command..... sometimes i feel what would had happened if pakistan armed forces got $45 billion dollars of budget every year?
They would had smoked India.....

 

[Advocate Pakistan]

If you get aster will you be able to put it on ada class or won't due to ample space?
And you guys were trying your hands on type 54 what happened to it? It can become backbone of your frigates squadron and 3 type 52C's can become a seeding squadron for PN, further more a 100 navy ship would be potent enough for Western naval command..... sometimes i feel what would had happened if pakistan armed forces got $45 billion dollars of budget every year?
They would had smoked India.....

The manning requirements of Type 54 are more than the ADA class. 170 versus 100. So it is definitely expensive to operate. Type 52Cs are even more expensive to operate as they are even a notch up. Plus only Chinese systems would make us too dependent on China, and when you rely heavily on one supplier you are always prone to face embargoes like we faced after the 65 war, when Soviet Union armed India to the teeth and we were facing armed embargo from our capitalist "all weather friends."
Coming to the second part Pakistan wouldn't be able to absorb 45 billion dollars in defence budget, it will lead to massive corruption amongst the services. It would be better to spend that part of money in education and strengthening local R&d setup, especially in the private sector. Than slowly and gradually you can increase the defence budget to 45 billion dollars while your local defence industry has established itself and capable of producing high quality big ticket items. Remember that after partition we didn't even get a single Ordanance factory, all 19 or so went to India, (contrary to the belief in India that Pakistan started off from a better position militarily and economically)
So from cattle grazing and farming in 1947 to becoming a nation with a global footprint (Though still less than India) we have indeed come a long way.

 

[mustafa erkan]

If it had been me personally, I would have ordered the LF-2400 (or VLS-equipped ship from China). However, the PN apparently decided it needed a corvette without area-wide AAW coverage. That said, STM hasn't actually shown us the PN MILGEM corvette design - I hope we all get a nice surprise.

2 ada class on duty and 2 are in production phase at shipyards.
I CLASS production has began few months ago so no need for a new design like LF-2400 for Turkish navy.For which country has this design work done?
I guess its for Pakistan Navy.As we know some systems will change with different ones which Pakistan navy interested in. Price reduced to 250 million per ship because of these changes. I think your ship will be like LF-2400, may be with minor changes.

 

[Penguin]

..Tbh i'm expecting the base standard version.. Not happy with this deal at all... Without VLS or a decent Sam on board. Really these ships will be blown out of the water by the Indian navy. My biggest reservation is the firepower of the Indian ships and what they offer- not to mention Brahmos, it just doesn't suit the Pakistani-Indian naval theatre. In the end, if Pakistan truly cannot spend a dime more; than the purchase of standard Ada, then I guess you take what you can or wait a year or two and buy 4x Milgem-G or 4x Type 054a.

Personally I'm of the opinion that Milgem-G ought to be procured at the very min or perhaps consider the Chinese options, can't see these ships offering much in the standard version, merely a waste of money.

Does anyone know how much the milgem-G would have cost? With some of the Pakistani subsystems to bring the overall cost down, like with the current deal- one would imagine the prices wouldn't have been too dissimilar.

P.S. Not faulting the Turks, mainly the inexplicable purchase of the standard Ada. It's just not what Pakistan needs. Just my two pennies worth.

Why do you assume PN surface ships are primarily intended to confront IN surface ships? Personally, I feel (even with the current ships) that PN main surface vessels are mainly ASW, with some anti-ship and air-self-defence capability. Anti-torpedo self defences as installed on Ada support this. PAF, PN submarines and naval aviation ans PA coastal missile batteries will together deal with any IN surface units.

Ada/Milgem could carry Harpoon. However, this need not be the basic Harpoon now in PN service. In the making is an improved Harpoon that increases the ship-launched missile's range from the Block II's 70 nmi (81 mi; 130 km) to 134 nmi (154 mi; 248 km), along with a new lighter 300 lb (140 kg) warhead and a more fuel-efficient engine with electronic fuel controls. Boeing offered the missile as the U.S. Navy's Littoral Combat Ship frigate upgrade over-the-horizon anti-ship missile as a cost-effective missile upgrade option; complete Next Gen Harpoons would cost approximately as much as a Block II at $1.2 million each, with upgrades for an existing missile costing half that. This version is called Harpoon Block II + ER. That 248km is a better range than the current Brahmos in low detecction lo-lo-lo anti-ship flight profile (120km) and will remain so even if the range of Brahmos is doubled. Higher flight profiles lead to early missile detection and make more effective counter measures possible.

I've already indicated that RAM block 2 range is 2.5x that of the earlier blocks (22.5km rather than 9km).

Ada's signature reduction features are very good, making it more difficult to detect and target.

We can all make nice wish lists as far as capabilities are concerned. However, please start addressing the block obsolecence issue that the PN is facing. Because that is the most immediate and pressing problem.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

2 ada class on duty and 2 are in production phase at shipyards.
I CLASS production has began few months ago so no need for a new design like LF-2400 for Turkish navy.For which country has this design work done?
I guess its for Pakistan Navy.As we know some systems will change with different ones which Pakistan navy interested in. Price reduced to 250 million per ship because of these changes. I think your ship will be like LF-2400, may be with minor changes.

Yes, but the LF-2400 was designed for export in general, not specifically Pakistan. It's possible it will come to Pakistan, if not in the current order, then possibly later.

Why do you assume PN surface ships are primarily intended to confront IN surface ships? Personally, I feel (even with the current ships) that PN main surface vessels are mainly ASW, with some anti-ship and air-self-defence capability. Anti-torpedo self defences installed support this. PAF, PN submarines and naval aviation ans PA coastal missile batteries will together deal with any IN surface units.

Ada/Milgem could carry Harpoon. However, this need not be the basic Harpoon now in PN service. In the making is an improved Harpoon that increases the ship-launched missile's range from the Block II's 70 nmi (81 mi; 130 km) to 134 nmi (154 mi; 248 km), along with a new lighter 300 lb (140 kg) warhead and a more fuel-efficient engine with electronic fuel controls. Boeing offered the missile as the U.S. Navy's Littoral Combat Ship frigate upgrade over-the-horizon anti-ship missile as a cost-effective missile upgrade option; complete Next Gen Harpoons would cost approximately as much as a Block II at $1.2 million each, with upgrades for an existing missile costing half that. The version is also called the Harpoon Block II + ER. That 248km is a better range than the current Brahmos in low detecction lo-lo-lo anti-ship flight profile (120km) and will remain so even if the range of Brahmos is doubled. Higher flight profiles lead to early missile detection and more effective counter measures.

I've already indicated that RAM block 2 range is 2.5x that of the earlier blocks.

Ada's signature reduction features are very good, making it more difficult to detect and target.

We can all make nice wish lists as far as capabilities are concerned. However, please start addressing the block obsolecence issue that the PN is facing. Because that is the most immediate and pressing problem.

The PN could also consider arming the corvettes with a heavy-hitting AShM, like the one they're planning to give the fourth Azmat FAC.

 

[Penguin]

The PN could also consider arming the corvettes with a heavy-hitting AShM, like the one they're planning to give the fourth Azmat FAC.

IMHO, this should be done with all four FAC-Ms, and these c/should receive Phalanx forward as these become available from retiring Type 21s. I would not seek these heavier missiles for Ada (space/weight constraints may apply and/or negative effects on RCS-reduction)

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) , I agree. Reportedly, the self defence Chinese VLS is 3.3 meters deep while internal diameter of each missile canister stands at 85 cm. Now, I believe with a slightly elongated hull we would have been able to put it in.

China CN VLS
Lengths: 3.3m, 7m, and 9m.
Internal Diameter: 85cm
Larger internal diameter suggests larger deck area also. "Deck footprint" it is called, I guess.
Than there is the Russian VLS, Korean VLS and Indo-Israeli VLS whose specs I couldn't find about.
IMO, the 7m Chinese version should theoretically be able to launch AShM and ASROC type torpedoes also. Thus further improving stealth characters.

See here regarding the Chinese VLS system
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/type-055-ddg-news-discussions.307231/page-38#post-9201827

3.3m vls versus SD-10A (which is more than 4m?) > for what missile? DK-9C only?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

IMHO, this should be done with all four FAC-Ms, and these c/should receive Phalanx forward as these become available from retiring Type 21s. I would not seek these heavier missiles for Ada (space/weight constraints may apply and/or negative effects on RCS-reduction)

Do you think the Turkish Atmaca AShM could be a technically viable option?

 

[Basel]

Why do you assume PN surface ships are primarily intended to confront IN surface ships? Personally, I feel (even with the current ships) that PN main surface vessels are mainly ASW, with some anti-ship and air-self-defence capability. Anti-torpedo self defences as installed on Ada support this. PAF, PN submarines and naval aviation ans PA coastal missile batteries will together deal with any IN surface units.

Ada/Milgem could carry Harpoon. However, this need not be the basic Harpoon now in PN service. In the making is an improved Harpoon that increases the ship-launched missile's range from the Block II's 70 nmi (81 mi; 130 km) to 134 nmi (154 mi; 248 km), along with a new lighter 300 lb (140 kg) warhead and a more fuel-efficient engine with electronic fuel controls. Boeing offered the missile as the U.S. Navy's Littoral Combat Ship frigate upgrade over-the-horizon anti-ship missile as a cost-effective missile upgrade option; complete Next Gen Harpoons would cost approximately as much as a Block II at $1.2 million each, with upgrades for an existing missile costing half that. This version is called Harpoon Block II + ER. That 248km is a better range than the current Brahmos in low detecction lo-lo-lo anti-ship flight profile (120km) and will remain so even if the range of Brahmos is doubled. Higher flight profiles lead to early missile detection and make more effective counter measures possible.

I've already indicated that RAM block 2 range is 2.5x that of the earlier blocks (22.5km rather than 9km).

Ada's signature reduction features are very good, making it more difficult to detect and target.

We can all make nice wish lists as far as capabilities are concerned. However, please start addressing the block obsolecence issue that the PN is facing. Because that is the most immediate and pressing problem.

What western weapon package for PN you can expect for these ships even if they came in standard ada configuration, PN may have Harpoon block-2 on T-21s which could be last option if noting good is available from west also PN seems to be interested in SA SAMs too.