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Pakistan 'in' South Asia

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Which is Ironic..
Since one of the most important occasions in the life of any Human being in Pakistan.. Marriage
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Has much more in common in terms of culture with what happens across the border
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Then what happens in a Peninsula across the Arabian Sea
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to aap kia apne shaadi main raam raam bhi kerte ho, aur fire ke dird girha bandh ker chakar lagate ho kia? ;)
 
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But why they prefer to be seen as Arab rather than Pakistani is probably due to an ingrained inferiority complex that some have. After all it's dandy to be seen as a 'firangi'! :P

Its got zilch to do with a firang complex.
 
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Sir, you need to further study the Aryan Invasion Theory, The Aryan Migration Theory and Out of India Theory.

Aren't you going to give us your version of the above? Where Aryans stomped all the way to err...wherever it is they stomped to, where Dravidians stomped all the way down to South India....yet somehow left the true scions of the IVC untouched. Good example of over head transmission, I must say!





Yes Dravidian people moved from IVC to Southern India according to some accounts. And the genes of Ancient North Indians and Ancient South Indians are distinctly different, but you can not say with authority that those who did not migrate from IVC were all invaders and not the original inhabitants.


Ancestral North Indians & Ancestral South Indians eh?
From where you seem to be in a hurry to go to, I suggest giving genetic studies a break & sticking with good old fashioned bigotry. All this genetic talk might actually bring in facts of a 40000 year stability in the gene pool & all other inconvenient details into the discussion. Funny how this people who claim to be continuous descendents were never affected by all the invasions but the others were....:rolleyes:
 
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Gotta agree..Pakistanis got a massive identity problem.

Either they got nothing to do with ivc or their own heritage or it has nothing to do with Indians. LOL.

Seriously Pakistan should be more like Iran. People of Iran are comfortable in their own skin and take pride in their legacy along with Zoroastrian Iranians.

Instead of outpouring of rhetorical and exasperated schmuck, talk logical and come out with intelligent explanation.
 
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I respect the research carried out by others - but I believe more in my own self than a faraway, twice a year traveling to India Pakistan, American who calls himself a South Asian expert.

Then I cannot blame you for your ignorance. As some said "ignorance is bliss".
 
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It's much more logical than what you posted mate. Atleast what I wrote has a factual basis.
 
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[:::~Spartacus~:::];3394959 said:
what a racist remark??, same can be said or even worse about image of pakistanis abroad


Sirs, instead of fighting amongst each other in support of others, please join together to fight against others who are inimical to Pakistan - whosoever they may be.
 
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I dont think you have travelled a lot then as such.
All along north to south of Pakistan, there are multiple pockets and groups of people who consider themselves "arab" by taking their "Syed" heritage a bit too literally. Others dont even have lineage to use as an excuse but still end up dressing up like Arabs and imposing draconian restrictions on their families in the guise of Islam and Arabism. With most providing the argument that "because we are Muslims, we are Arabs".

There are three different arguments I have heard from different viewpoints summed together:

First on the basis of genealogy , yes there are many in Pakistan who may consider themselves of Arab "blood" since detailed family tree's and authentic genealogical charts have been recorded as a practice since the times of the Tughlak dynasty.
Many of these Arab lines are from the Sufi Saints that came into India to preach and propagate Islam, for eg the descendants of Moenuddin Chishti of Ajmer carry Arab-Afghan heritage and can through detailed verified genealogical charts..however to consider that for 900 years to this day this bloodline carries only Arab-Afghan blood is to be unrealistic. The number of converts in India grew under these Saints and many married into many local populations in an effort to "integrate" Islam into India(not the opposite).
So yes, there is now a measurable section of both India & Pakistan that is Arab,Afghan and Persian by heritage and lineage...
This means that while they do have a separate identity..it is not Arab or Persian or otherwise.
It was a unique identity of being Indian(pre-partition) Muslims..of being part of the land rather than alien to it...
It had little role to play in politics until the British came along.

However, these people form much less of the actual population of Pakistan and are generally mirrored by many "fake" representations of Arab lineage(which in reality may not even have a single Arab Chromosome in them). And these have mirror counterparts in India as well. These are generally "created" for personal gain rather than identity and should not be taken as an attempt to be more Arab than the Arabs.

Second: are the "urbies" or Wannabe "arabs".. this new phenomenon is the direct result of the interference and influence of the Saud Dynasty into Pakistani society. The introduction of this Modern Arab Extremism has led to a large section of the religious leadership in Pakistan and otherwise to completely consider themselves alien to the rest of South Asia simply based on the fact that their religion is Islam.
So even though a person may be entirely Dravidian by his lineage.. He considers himself a Arab(apparently being Muslim cuts you off from the land) and starts to dress and act accordingly. This conversion varies across the spectrum with various shades of Arabism and Afghan cultural shades appearing within this lot. This does however point more to the nature of the people of this land to adapt to different influences rather than a testament to being separate from the rest of South Asia.
India was able to avoid this phenomenon because the major Islamic education centre's in British India(Deoband,Osmania University, Aligarh University) stayed within India after Partition(although most of Deobands Scholars migrated to Pakistan..and did not take up the Deoband name again.. which means that many of those that consider themselves Deobandis arent exactly following those of the original institution..although this requires more research) and hence the leadership that provides Islamic thought and guidance in India is still fairly controlled through these institutions.
While in Pakistan, there is no centre to "regulate" Islamic thought... its everyone's heyday and interpretation...which when it comes in the hands of the uneducated or unbridled.. results in the disaster we see today.

A third argument is that the area that the Indus River has always been a buffer between South Asia and the Middle east..
The mixpot where hundreds of cultural colors end up mixing and hundreds of different identities exist. And where generally.. the Indus has acted much like a cultural equivalent of a timezone divider. If such is the case, then there will always be an identity issue across Pakistan since it is caught between two differing shades of cultural views.
One in the east that is more colourful and vibrant but varying, and the other in its west that is more Sober and uniform but disciplined. Education may have been one tool to unite these two halves and promote a balanced harmony.. but that never happened.

In my view..the final result is a mixture of all these conditions and perhaps other social phenomenon which history has influenced.

The actual study will require less bias and bigotry than which can be provided by many PDF members in my view.

Thank you for a clear and lucid note, one of the best.
 
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Sirs, instead of fighting amongst each other in support of others, please join together to fight against others who are inimical to Pakistan - whosoever they may be.

Yeah, lashing out is important.

Against who is just a minor detail.
 
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That a very insightful remark. It is why the Egyptians, the Iraqis, the Iranians can all be proud of their past(there are no other claimants either to that culture or religion) but Pakistanis find it difficult. Even in the case of the IVC, Pakistanis feel the need to separate it from any aspect of Indian culture (thereby deny Indians any claim) or religion (have to completely ignore & rubbish even what are very remote Hindu connections). Little wonder most remain confused on their historical identities.

I am slowly coming around to the view (which I have been putting down very harshly all along) that our keeping the name India has proved to be really damaging for several things.

I believe it to be mainly distance. Same reason why Alexander of Macedon failed to capture India. By the time they got there, they where already spent and tired, longing to go home.

Far more complex. I wish somebody would open a thread separately about this.
 
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Had the name 'India' not been adopted by us, Pakistanis would have more opened for the idea of accepting our old civilization/cultural values.
 
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Sirs, instead of fighting amongst each other in support of others, please join together to fight against others who are inimical to Pakistan - whosoever they may be.

Because there is no one Pakistani. There are Arab Pakistanis, there are Persian Pakistanis, there are sub continental Pakistanis, there are central Asian Pakistanis, there are west Asian Pakistanis and who knowns how many and each believe in their own self made history :lol:
 
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I am slowly coming around to the view (which I have been putting down very harshly all along) that our keeping the name India has proved to be really damaging for several things.

Are you saying they would have loved us and come back into the fold within a decade like prodigal brothers had we called ourselves Bharat?

Far more complex. I wish somebody would open a thread separately about this.

Yes, lets! :)
 
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Aren't you going to give us your version of the above? Where Aryans stomped all the way to err...wherever it is they stomped to, where Dravidians stomped all the way down to South India....yet somehow left the true scions of the IVC untouched. Good example of over head transmission, I must say!

Sir, we live in modern times and use WiMax transmission. Overhead was used by original IVC inhabitants.

The problem with you people is that you have never been taught these facts in the manner and therefore you people find it difficult to digest and believe these facts.

And also, you people feel that these indulgent Pakistanis are now entering our domain, which has not been yours in the first place.

Cool down - see the ground realities and accept the facts.



Ancestral North Indians & Ancestral South Indians eh?
From where you seem to be in a hurry to go to, I suggest giving genetic studies a break & sticking with good old fashioned bigotry. All this genetic talk might actually bring in facts of a 40000 year stability in the gene pool & all other inconvenient details into the discussion. Funny how this people who claim to be continuous descendents were never affected by all the invasions but the others were....:rolleyes:

Because the invaders after your so-called 4000 year gene pool stability were not so large in numbers to have interfered with it. And that is what I am trying to tell you that majority of people in Pakistan are the original inhabitants of the land and therefore are the scions.

The only major problem you people have is that of their being Muslims. Please learn to live with it.

Because there is no one Pakistani. There are Arab Pakistanis, there are Persian Pakistanis, there are sub continental Pakistanis, there are central Asian Pakistanis, there are west Asian Pakistanis and who knowns how many and each believe in their own self made history :lol:

Bull C rap tin Horn
 
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