Pakistan has second strike capability against India

[war&peace]

babur on surface ships i understand. However, what he was on about is ballstic missiles through torpedo tubes without requiring VLS.

now that is not possible through agosta subs or the chinese s20s. if so then do enlighten me

@war&peace

i am sure you know what you are on about please explain.

if not ask @Penguin he is well versed in such topics i am sure he would be able to clarify that Pakistan cannot fire "nuclear missiles" using agosta 90s as a platform. without VLS. and agostas cannot be modified to carry VLS.

Please read post # 44 just above your last comment

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

our armed forces are doing every possible thing to defend pakistan with no economy no funds but challenges alot.pakistan armed forces never disclose anything until its already out.just have faith in your armed forces.We have alot of strategies,weapon systems special thanks to turkey n china.well did any one remember PN tested ballistic missile from one of its ship in past

Precisely. Like I have said in many posts, no one really knows Pakistan's military/nuclear weapons capabilities as we seldom announce them. A day before we conducted our tests in 1998, some Pakistanis, the whole of india and the majority of the rest of the world doubted that Pakistan had a nuclear weapons capability. We know what happened to that opinion/notion. I would not be surprised if Pakistan already has a hydrogen bomb/thermonuclear weapons capability. Perhaps it's this uncertainty that is keeping our enemies at bay.

 

[war&peace]

Precisely. Like I have said in many posts, no one really knows Pakistan's military/nuclear weapons capabilities as we seldom announce them. A day before we conducted our tests in 1998, some Pakistanis, the whole of india and the majority of the rest of the world doubted that Pakistan had a nuclear weapons capability. We know what happened to that opinion/notion. I would not be surprised if Pakistan already has a hydrogen bomb/thermonuclear weapons capability. Perhaps it's this uncertainty that is keeping our enemies at bay.

Just to add Pakistan already tested a boosted fission device in 1998 which is a step closer to thermonuke but about true H-bomb...I have no info...I think they done it but can't do the hot test. Only cold testing . But if India does a favour to Pakistan similar to 1998 and tests a nuke again, we test it too. And perhaps the chances are there. Again it is BJP in power, Murdoodi is more hardliner than Vaj Payee and some Indian scientists have claimed that 1998 test were failure and India needs to it again.

 

[Super Falcon]

That would require like 200 bliion USD to develop base infrastructure and another 200 billion USD for specific R&D. A 100 billion to launch and maintain satellite networks to support this. About two decades of sustain scientific work and a decade more to produce highly trained professionals and scientists to run this project. Now let me see if there is half trillion and a time machine lying under my bed!

P.S. After all this, there is no guarantee that project will be a success.

Agreed but we can be partners with china can use occaisionaly that laser when needed everything else should be in chinese control

 

[ice_man]

Please read post # 44 just above your last comment

ok for the sake of the argument has pakistan developed a sea based version of Babur yet that could be launched from a sub ?

every other argument is secondary.

 

[Bossman]

Since you seem to have some knowledge, unlike other trolls, I would like share some insight. The standard heavy torpedo tubes are 533 mm and since Babur CM's dia is 520 mm so it can be easily fired from these tubes and Pak Navy and NDC already worked on it and both Agosta-70 and 90-B can fire Babur SLCM and it has been already done. The S20 from China can carry 18 such torpedoes and perhaps a mix of 12 Babur SLCM and 6 torpedoes or all 18 Babur SLCM has been planned by Pak Navy and strategic command division thus quite a potent sea based 2nd strike capability in addition to land based deep silos and mobile TEL based launchers.

Thanks for the clarification, I was wrongly under he impression that Babur needed a bigger tube than 533mm.

babur on surface ships i understand. However, what he was on about is ballstic missiles through torpedo tubes without requiring VLS.

now that is not possible through agosta subs or the chinese s20s. if so then do enlighten me

@war&peace

i am sure you know what you are on about please explain.

if not ask @Penguin he is well versed in such topics i am sure he would be able to clarify that Pakistan cannot fire "nuclear missiles" using agosta 90s as a platform. without VLS. and agostas cannot be modified to carry VLS.

SLCM not SLBMs

 

[war&peace]

Thanks for the clarification, I was wrongly under he impression that Babur needed a bigger tube than 533mm.



SLCM not SLBMs

That is also not a coincidence, when the requirement for Babur cruise missile were charted out it was decided back then to have land based, surface ship and submarine launched. The latter to be used with Pakistan's existing submarines through the standard torpedoes. While the ALCM Ra'ad was given to another organisation.

 

[Penguin]

Since you seem to have some knowledge, unlike other trolls, I would like share some insight. The standard heavy torpedo tubes are 533 mm and since Babur CM's dia is 520 mm so it can be easily fired from these tubes and Pak Navy and NDC already worked on it and both Agosta-70 and 90-B can fire Babur SLCM and it has been already done. The S20 from China can carry 18 such torpedoes and perhaps a mix of 12 Babur SLCM and 6 torpedoes or all 18 Babur SLCM has been planned by Pak Navy and strategic command division thus quite a potent sea based 2nd strike capability in addition to land based deep silos and mobile TEL based launchers.

Perhaps the missile is indeed 520mm in diameter. However, that only leaves 13mm to spare and the missile does need to be encapsulated for submerged launch (i.e. a 'second skin' of max 6.5mm all around the missile)

Pic of the actual thing here SVSM Gallery :: UGM-84 Harpoon Container, Bowfin Park, Pearl Harbor, HI, by Vladimir Yakubov

See explanation here
Can Pakistan produce/acquire these kinds of subs? | Page 7
Can Pakistan produce/acquire these kinds of subs? | Page 7

In an UGM-109 underwater launch, the missile remains enclosed in its transport canister until it has cleared the torpedo tube. The canister is then ejected, and the booster ignites to propel the missile to the surface. After it is fully airborne, some protective covers are jettisoned, and the flight procedes as in a surface launch. Newer SSNs also have vertical launch tubes for the UGM-109 missile.

Raytheon AGM/BGM/RGM/UGM-109 Tomahawk

The 0.52 m diameter tomahawk was fired from standard 21 inch torpedo tube. With Babur, the problem is not firing the missile from an SSK like Agosta. The point is how many it can carry (in addition to torpedoes). Virginia class has room for 27 large weapons, Los Angelos for 37, while SeaWolf could carry 50. A Russian Kilo carriers 18 large weapons max. Agosta can take 'only' 16 large weapons, and some of these will have to be torpedoes, and some antiship missiles. Let's say 4 AShM. That leaves 12. Say 4 land attack cruise missiles. That leaves 8. These must be dual use torps for anti-shipping and anti-submarine warfare. In short yes you could put Babur on an SSK. This platform could work as deterrent if they are nuclear tipped and on all boats (you can't use them for anti-shipping and ASW then, really, for this could give them away and/or would put them in places with higher risk). This could not work if the idea is to have conventional strike capability (number of cruise missiles per boat is too few).

 

[Paksanity]

Agreed but we can be partners with china can use occaisionaly that laser when needed everything else should be in chinese control

China is far far behind in cutting edge military technology. People often ignore four important pillars behind US military machine which are:

1) massive investment in cutting edge R&D in world's broadest innovation base right at university level
2) world's largest and most advanced industrial base that can churn out just about any article of technology
3) undying obsession with quality and innovation that doesn't let them settle for anything less than best
4) world's largest pool of best minds to support all this which have decades of experience in their respective fields

Europeans are second best followed by Russians. China has a long way to go. They haven't developed culture of supporting innovation and free thinking yet.

 

[Penguin]

Since you seem to have some knowledge, unlike other trolls, I would like share some insight. The standard heavy torpedo tubes are 533 mm and since Babur CM's dia is 520 mm so it can be easily fired from these tubes and Pak Navy and NDC already worked on it and both Agosta-70 and 90-B can fire Babur SLCM and it has been already done. The S20 from China can carry 18 such torpedoes and perhaps a mix of 12 Babur SLCM and 6 torpedoes or all 18 Babur SLCM has been planned by Pak Navy and strategic command division thus quite a potent sea based 2nd strike capability in addition to land based deep silos and mobile TEL based launchers.

THat would effectively put the subs out of business as a anti-surface/shipping and anti-submarine weapons and they would be all but (self) defenceless)

 

[zeetr]

lol just saw an indian fourm
these illiterate peeps didnt even know what does 2nd strike capability means...
poor them

 

[Bossman]

Perhaps the missile is indeed 520mm in diameter. However, that only leaves 13mm to spare and the missile does need to be encapsulated for submerged launch (i.e. a 'second skin' of max 6.5mm all around the missile)

Pic of the actual thing here SVSM Gallery :: UGM-84 Harpoon Container, Bowfin Park, Pearl Harbor, HI, by Vladimir Yakubov

See explanation here
Can Pakistan produce/acquire these kinds of subs? | Page 7
Can Pakistan produce/acquire these kinds of subs? | Page 7

Raytheon AGM/BGM/RGM/UGM-109 Tomahawk

The 0.52 m diameter tomahawk was fired from standard 21 inch torpedo tube. With Babur, the problem is not firing the missile from an SSK like Agosta. The point is how many it can carry (in addition to torpedoes). Virginia class has room for 27 large weapons, Los Angelos for 37, while SeaWolf could carry 50. A Russian Kilo carriers 18 large weapons max. Agosta can take 'only' 16 large weapons, and some of these will have to be torpedoes, and some antiship missiles. Let's say 4 AShM. That leaves 12. Say 4 land attack cruise missiles. That leaves 8. These must be dual use torps for anti-shipping and anti-submarine warfare. In short yes you could put Babur on an SSK. This platform could work as deterrent if they are nuclear tipped and on all boats (you can't use them for anti-shipping and ASW then, really, for this could give them away and/or would put them in places with higher risk). This could not work if the idea is to have conventional strike capability (number of cruise missiles per boat is too few).

In Indo pak context where both countries are just establishing a second strike capability, it is deterrence which counts rather than numbers. There is no reason to compare with bigger Navies. As our Ex Foreign Secretary Agha Shahi said once in Indo Pak context nuclear delivery has little relevance because we can practically deliver a nuke on a bullock cart. Obviously, that was before the Indians put up the fence and messed up every thing.

 

[war&peace]

THat would effectively put the subs out of business as a anti-surface/shipping and anti-submarine weapons and they would be all but (self) defenceless)

I am not really sure what mix they will carry but of course SM39 Exocet will be there

 

[Mitro]

Check this video how Babur is going to be fired from submarine

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

China is far far behind in cutting edge military technology. People often ignore four important pillars behind US military machine which are:

1) massive investment in cutting edge R&D in world's broadest innovation base right at university level
2) world's largest and most advanced industrial base that can churn out just about any article of technology
3) undying obsession with quality and innovation that doesn't let them settle for anything less than best
4) world's largest pool of best minds to support all this which have decades of experience in their respective fields

Europeans are second best followed by Russians. China has a long way to go. They haven't developed culture of supporting innovation and free thinking yet.

Everything said here is very true