Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Incog_nito]

Is PAF negotiating to acquire the remaining F-16s from JAF?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Jordanian_Air_Force#Current_inventory

 

[CriticalThought]

i for one believe that all non state actor rule should end, if economical development is our goal.
govt and army has to be sincere in this objective

I don't know why this HQN terminology persists, but I think it's because it's convenient for the Yanks to apportion blame to one entity. The truth is, after the execution of their leader in Baluchistan, the Taliban is a fragmented force.

Furthermore, this image of a well trained HQN with training camps organized in Pakistan is a ghost that plagues their febrile minds. The fact of the matter is, they have been unwittingly supplying world class training and weapons to them via the folly that is Afghan Army. The recent video of Taliban special forces showing American special forces weapons is proof of this.

The HQN delusion was clearly revealed by the recent allegations that Iran is causing chaos on Afghanistan and surfacing of a video showing Russians are supplying them weapons. The whole world seems to be out to get them in Afghanistan.

The only way to end this circus is to allow us to deal with it. Make no mistakes we are doing them a huge favor. We will be putting lives of thousands of soldiers at risk and suffer much terrorism in the country. But we sincerely believe the only way to have a safe and stable Pakistan is to first have a safe and stable Afghanistan. And we are willing to work towards that.

 

[Incog_nito]

If yes, then what JAF will going to do with it's AF? Are they planning to acquire JF-17s Block-IIs along with JF-17 dual seat and later JF-17 Block-IIIs?

 

[araz]

If yes, then what JAF will going to do with it's AF? Are they planning to acquire JF-17s Block-IIs along with JF-17 dual seat and later JF-17 Block-IIIs?

They are getting more F16s from uncle Sam.
A

 

[denel]

If there's a strong Pak Govt to stand up to the US on any issue, the PAF will be there to support it (as it has in the Pressler days).

This is the issue with the overall arching politics - complete fracture and corruption, no vision for overall country in terms of education, health, infrastructure and money grab - similar situation to my country. Until that does not change, our countries will be relegated to the backwaters.

There would be no mutually-damning scenarios if the PAF kept to its role of being a military service arm.

Pakistan's wider dysfunctions, such as a weak government (esp. on the foreign relations side) and the resulting inability (or unwillingness) to fight for Pakistan's interests has resulted in the PAF doing diplomacy work. There's a void and it is trying to plug that gap.

But as you let the armed forces engage in such works, then you might as well also live with ill-informed media outlets, Hussain Haqqanis, Asma Jehangirs, etc, doing the same thing. They're also non-elected entities filling up the diplomacy void left by a weak Pakistani government.

Basically, there is no other point than the obvious: it isn't the PAF's job nor its right to determine who its (and, by extension Pakistan's) friends are... The fact that this is happening isn't an indictment on the PAF in as much as it is an indictment on Pakistan's government. Even if you wanted a pro-U.S. government, why is the ACM going to Washington to convince it of F-16s? Shouldn't this be done by the MoD, FO and an army of experts (incl the PAF but also civil rights activists, locals from FATA, Pakistani as well as neutral Western defence analysts, lobbyists, etc)?

on the point!. the embassy staff are busy with their own affairs.
if you come here to Pretoria, just go to the consulate of Pakistan. Completely disfunctional, if you try to call them, they never return a call and with 3 hrs work window, i am told on very good authority all of their staff are busy with side line business deals importing stuff and selling them to local small businesses. then one wonders why so much could have been had from Armscor if they had professional attaches. If that is not it, those who come as defence attaches land up on scholarships to study at Wits University to get the additional stipends. Hence the question, who is doing their work. No one.
I had wanted to visit your country a few years back but after going to your country's embassy, threw the application in their trashbin. They could give me a time come back after 2 days; go there, it is still in front of the official, went there 3 time and finally tried to see the first secretary; always in meetings. Turns out he is never there; he has involved with side line businesses.
So what can you expect from the Washington staff. My 2 cents of my observation here.

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

Because the F16 mafia rules the roost in the Paf---. The F16 offers retirement jobs form them in the U S and green cards---what will the MIG35 or the J10 offer for them----?

unfortuntely even the f-16 mafia has not been able to do a top notch job when it comes to procurement

I don't know why this HQN terminology persists, but I think it's because it's convenient for the Yanks to apportion blame to one entity. The truth is, after the execution of their leader in Baluchistan, the Taliban is a fragmented force.

Furthermore, this image of a well trained HQN with training camps organized in Pakistan is a ghost that plagues their febrile minds. The fact of the matter is, they have been unwittingly supplying world class training and weapons to them via the folly that is Afghan Army. The recent video of Taliban special forces showing American special forces weapons is proof of this.

The HQN delusion was clearly revealed by the recent allegations that Iran is causing chaos on Afghanistan and surfacing of a video showing Russians are supplying them weapons. The whole world seems to be out to get them in Afghanistan.

The only way to end this circus is to allow us to deal with it. Make no mistakes we are doing them a huge favor. We will be putting lives of thousands of soldiers at risk and suffer much terrorism in the country. But we sincerely believe the only way to have a safe and stable Pakistan is to first have a safe and stable Afghanistan. And we are willing to work towards that.

1. our counter narrative is very weak
2. i believe that issue can be explained in one word, which was the problem in Vietnam as well "opium trade"

 

[Incog_nito]

They are getting more F16s from uncle Sam.
A

Really, which type of F-16s and how many of them? Who's paying the money?

 

[Thorough Pro]

"They" here means Jordanian Air Force.

 

[Readerdefence]

I see what you mean. Yes, they can if they're already familiar with
a reference jet.

Say a PAF Viper pilot transitioned to the Thunder since it arrived.
So a pilot that got his squadron assignment to an F_16 in 2010
could have switched in 2014-15 to a Thunder equipped squadron.

That guy knows their differences and maybe had 1 on 1 DACT?
When he faces J-10Bs / J-11s or better yet Su-30MKK ( that are
most alike the south-eastern neighbours' MKIs ), he'll be able to
translate the knowledge gained to what using a Viper would be like
and what tactics it would then require.

I hope it's clear enough; don't hesitate to ask for precisions and
have a great day, Tay.

Hi thx for your detailed & knowledgeable reply

Hi,

Just look at the integration time frame of the F22 and the F35. There is no short cut to the time it takes for integration.

A simple little aircraft is almost in the 12 th year of i ts integration and still it has years to go---.

The 5th gen is a totally different beast---you have to learn---UN-LEARN and act and fly differently to fly---engage and disengage---.

What was it the change from Windows7 to Windows 8 that the world was crying for years---just look at that how long it took to make that change---.

The difference between a 5th gen and a 4th gen aircraft is of astronomical proportions.

Hi mastan sb thx for your reply

Yes they always do. That is the purpose of these international exercises, to learn from each other. They're not going there to have Chinese food....

Hi hopefully the will have some Chinese food also
Thx for your reply

 

[cloud4000]

We should come back with a sweeter deal: peace in Afghanistan. Do they want it? If so, allow Pakistan to slowly and systematically absorb Pashtun majority areas adjacent to it. Support us in achieving this aim. It's s win win for everyone.

US is looking for an exit strategy from Afghanistan. It's not looking to prolong its stay there forever. The Afghans are a hopeless mess incapable of doing anything except line their pockets.

US main concern in the region is containing China and Pakistan can't help in this regard. CPEC confirms this.

It would be better if regional players take over and make something happen in Afghanistan. In essence, Pakistan and US should go there separate ways on Afghanistan.

 

[CriticalThought]

US is looking for an exit strategy from Afghanistan. It's not looking to prolong its stay there forever. The Afghans are a hopeless mess incapable of doing anything except line their pockets.

US main concern in the region is containing China and Pakistan can't help in this regard. CPEC confirms this.

It would be better if regional players take over and make something happen in Afghanistan. In essence, Pakistan and US should go there separate ways on Afghanistan.

You might want to exit, but if you exit now you lose a geo-strategic advantage. You wanted to replicate Iraq: a compliant government that lets you exploit resources at cheap rates. This failed because you hobnobbed with sore losers: the Afghan government. You wanted a convenient launching pad against Russia and China. A complete withdrawal will negate that. Finally, a resurgence of Al-Qaida after American withdrawal would be even worse for Trump than not exiting. If you think about it, all your problems boil down to incompetent partners in Afghanistan. Pakistan can help you here. One big grumbling of Pashtuns is the matter of Durand Line. If we slowly absorb Pashtun areas and introduce good governance, the result would be an absolute success story. Pashtuns will be happy because they can move about freely in their own areas without restrictions. The prevalent lawlessness will go away as well. It is something you can boast to the rest of the world. We need resources from you guys for this. You should think deeply about this before walking away. Up till now, the Pak-America partnership has been riddled with conflict of interest. Here, we will absolutely share a joint vision and a win win situation.

 

[cloud4000]

You might want to exit, but if you exit now you lose a geo-strategic advantage. You wanted to replicate Iraq: a compliant government that lets you exploit resources at cheap rates. This failed because you hobnobbed with sore losers: the Afghan government. You wanted a convenient launching pad against Russia and China. A complete withdrawal will negate that. Finally, a resurgence of Al-Qaida after American withdrawal would be even worse for Trump than not exiting. If you think about it, all your problems boil down to incompetent partners in Afghanistan. Pakistan can help you here. One big grumbling of Pashtuns is the matter of Durand Line. If we slowly absorb Pashtun areas and introduce good governance, the result would be an absolute success story. Pashtuns will be happy because they can move about freely in their own areas without restrictions. The prevalent lawlessness will go away as well. It is something you can boast to the rest of the world. We need resources from you guys for this. You should think deeply about this before walking away. Up till now, the Pak-America partnership has been riddled with conflict of interest. Here, we will absolutely share a joint vision and a win win situation.

It's a little bit late in the game for any Pak-American partnership on Afghanistan. US has been asking Pakistan to launch a ZarbeAzb like operations for a long time, but it was only launched in 2014, well after the drawdown of US troops started. It would require a troop surge and Trump is not eager to waste any more money there.

As for influencing China and Russia via Afghanistan is a lost cause. There are other ways to counter them.

Nevertheless, I don't want to stray off topic here. Regarding the acquisitions of F-16s. If Pakistan wants new birds, it will get only Block 52s that they currently have, designated specifically for COIN ops. Means no AESA or latest AtoA missiles; and Pakistan will have to pay for them. It can go for used F-16s with upgrades route too.

But growing India-US defence relations could be a roadblock to even this path.

 

[MastanKhan]

usually when you pay so much in excess of 2-3 billion dollars you get something in return(india has 40% ofset clause), but in case of f-16 you dont even the ability integrate your strike weapon package, you have to buy everything from USA. This isnt like what we got with mirage 5 ROSE deal or what turkey or Israel got with their f-16s

for example you got the f-16 C/D with helmet mounted display but no fitfh gen Aim9x was provided

also i am not sure whether the block 70 is available, certainly not till india deal is active

Hi,

The reason India gets the 40% is not just like that. It already has similar tiered aircraft of different makes in inventory---SU30--M2K---Mig29

If Paf had M2K's or J10's in inventory---the story would be different---.

You simply cannot dictate terms from a position of integral weakness.

 

[ziaulislam]

It's a little bit late in the game for any Pak-American partnership on Afghanistan. US has been asking Pakistan to launch a ZarbeAzb like operations for a long time, but it was only launched in 2014, well after the drawdown of US troops started. It would require a troop surge and Trump is not eager to waste any more money there.

As for influencing China and Russia via Afghanistan is a lost cause. There are other ways to counter them.

Nevertheless, I don't want to stray off topic here. Regarding the acquisitions of F-16s. If Pakistan wants new birds, it will get only Block 52s that they currently have, designated specifically for COIN ops. Means no AESA or latest AtoA missiles; and Pakistan will have to pay for them. It can go for used F-16s with upgrades route too.

But growing India-US defence relations could be a roadblock to even this path.

i think once india decides on gripen, USA will offer new f-16 block 60/70 as well but not used ones
if Pakistan get b60/70 than for sure the LM choice are non left for india

i pretty much think f-16 era has ended, pakistan also doesnt seem to be interested spending big on fourth gen fighters especially when it has its own "gripen" the thunder, this is clearly hinted in recent interview with PAF chief who mentions that JF-17 will be taken to peak of fourth gen fighters, in long run just like sweden was able to bring down its operating cost alot with gripen, we will be able to replicate it with thunder in numbers

used f-16 PAF will take but i doubt LM wants that till its hoping to get new orders from pakistan

 

[EpiiC]

F-16 Is obsolete....... F-35 is the new champion of the sky....