Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

[Chak Bamu]

Considering the tenor of the discussion here, it might be of interest to note that on today's "Apas Ki Baat", Najam Sethi discussed the possible repercussions of downing a drone. He referred to 'highest sources' in his assertion that US has ability to disable our F-16s in case of any confrontation.

Analysts can make of it whatever they will. But this point just underscores our quest for independence from US as sole weapons supplier.

 

[Chak Bamu]

@MastanKhan, Sir could you please take the volume and rhetoric down a notch. You seem to think that everyone on this forum apart from yourself is somehow not your equal. You may have some justification in case you do feel so, but please bear in mind that many people on PDF are not mere students. They have education & experience, perhaps not along the lines you have. But they are no fools.

When you talk about Sikh Jathas and 0.303 guns and ammo, you are taking something out of context for your own purpose. Perhaps, someone who have heard such stories from his parents might feel offended at using such an example for lamenting the lack of spending billions of dollars that we never had. Perhaps some people might find it offensive that while we have abyssmal indicators in education, healthcare, and infrastructure, someone laments at us not spending billions of dollars for expensive, sanctionable gear. Perhaps someone does not think that a weapon system or two could avert a war that (if it were not for Kargil) never happened since 1971; and shall not happen for the foreseeable future (since we have THE bomb).

You seem to be stuck on a narrative that you never fail to repeat. It is getting a little worn out and so is the patience of a few, who seemingly do not respect your seniority. While I would not condone anybody disrespecting you, I would however ask you to please reconsider your practice of castigating PAF each time you post because of reasons that happened in 80s and 90s. Sir time moves on, you have made your point amply well. Now perhaps we should move on too from the fascination about what PAF could have done 35 years ago.

PAF could be the worst organization ever in our history, that should not mean that we can not discuss the technical, tactical, & strategic matters in current times.

 

[Bossman]

That's is MK's typical approach. When he cannot defend the topic at hand he brings in irrelevant issues into the discussion. I don't mind his point of view as everyone has a right to that however the way he puts puts downs other and is so patronizing forces me to kick his butt periodically. He quiets down far a while but comes back doing the same again.

 

[nomi007]

are pakistani f-16 block-52 pilots using paper manuals, maps, and other documents used in its aircraft (mainly in the cockpit) or mini tablet computers

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Hi,

I don't have a problem with paf going with the F 16---but for diversity sake---they should have also bought the first batch of M2K's as well to take india away from that market---thus inflicting a coupe de grace---. Leaving the M2k open to india---was like shooting your mother in the heart----.

That is why I keep saying----paf does not have any brains to think with.They have no strategy and game plan---they can fly----no doubt about that----.

Maybe during Lost Decade....at this point, M2K will be obsolete in not such a long time


#1 priority will be JF-17 Thunder Program, it ought to be

 

[cw2005]

That's is MK's typical approach. When he cannot defend the topic at hand he brings in irrelevant issues into the discussion. I don't mind his point of view as everyone has a right to that however the way he puts puts downs other and is so patronizing forces me to kick his butt periodically. He quiets down far a while but comes back doing the same again.

If you paid a little attention to MK’s background, you would have known that he is being driven from his years of experience in sales. When he is at work for a sale, he shall not stop because of a few argument otherwise he shall not survive as salesman for long.

I was buying a Toyota car in the states in year 1995 and when the salesman wants me to buy an American car, I told him Japanese car is trouble free and I need it. Than he was telling me how strong the American car compared with Japanese ones. When I said I don't want a strong car because I just need one to go to work and come home and I want an economy car to cut down my fuel expenses. The man started telling me how a big V6 should give me. This kind of attitude buries deep into our friend’s mind and influences his behavior. And he considers selling his idea the same as selling car.

I always find it amazing to read MK's thread and pick the lighter side of it. After all, are we taking very serious to what the salesman telling us?

Just leave him alone.

 

[Chak Bamu]

This is OFF TOPIC. So advance apologies.

It is unfortunate to see people picking on personal facets of @MastanKhan. For those disrespecting folks, I would like to ask if they would put up with such remarks themselves?

MK sb has a particular POV. One may not agree with him or his persistence in presenting it. But one can not assume the right to get personal. It is no 'right' at all but really height of badtameezi and that too with someone who is a senior member in # of posts as well as age, has been associated with PAF, and apparently cares deeply.

Mods, could you please delete the irrelevant posts, including mine so that an effective point is made?

 

[araz]

Maybe during Lost Decade....at this point, M2K will be obsolete in not such a long time


#1 priority will be JF-17 Thunder Program, it ought to be

What mastan has repeatedly quotesd and you highlighted is the opprtunity to buy M2ks in the 90s to keep the Indians out of the French market. I see the logic of it but we have heard from the very man who was involved in the deal that when the opportunity arose the french backed out and changed the price altogether. I dont know whetehr we would have ever gone over to buying the rafale even though we have evaluated it repeatedly and liked it. So it is a mute point. The other point to note is whetehr buying Rafales in 2002 would have prevented the Indiands from going on to buy the Typhoons which would have been an equally awesome plane and would have been the cause of nightmares for PAF. So I dont know whether the strategy would have worked .
The french commodities are now getting very expensive and there after sales service has not been the best. We have had to pay through our noses for the M3/5 spares and eventually went about scrounging for second hand platform. had it not been for our neighbours stupidity in the strait of Malaca we would never have gotten the australian M3/5s and spares for bargain basement price and would have had a jolly good time maintaining our fleet.Seconmdly the french did delay delivery of our Rose mirages and the Agosta subs in 2002 so there are no guarantees that they would not have done the same for the Rafale. I hope Nishan 101 is not going to come and recommend a joint venture with the french with assembly and manufacture of Rafales for PAF as that would give me a heart attack.
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

After all, are we taking very serious to what the salesman telling us?

Just leave him alone.

Hi,

Just read your comments a couple of times and think what you wrote---. So---what profession is taken seriously?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Looking at these so many posts----its is amazing and it is funny---you get to to understand---the eyes read what the mind is thinking---or in other words---the mind has already made it up what it wants to read---.

The M2k purchase was the best during the 80's and the 90's---the M2k-7 procurement was best during the early 2000 for a stop gap---not now---.

As for JF17---it is another 5 to 10 years away from being a potent platform---and only and only if it has a 1st grade BVR missile and aesa radar.

What is sad is that you people want the best and the latest for yourself---but when it comes to your motherland---she is hardly worthy of left overs---.

Losing the french for the chinese equipment was a terrible decision. You people keep hearing the paf say----JF 17 is our and without sanctions----okay---that is well and fine---but when you talk about JF 17---you have to ask---jf 17 is good in contest against which enemy aircraft---You want to procure 150---250 JF17's---okay---well and good---but then you must ask----which opponwent is it going to take a stand against---. That is a the general and basic question for any defence related discussion / argument---.

It always boils down to---what is your equipment going to do in the time of your need---under what circumstances it can be used to the best of its abilities and against what.

Chak Bamu---thank you for your post---. As I m getting older---I don't get upset for the personal digs---it does not bother me and does not hurt my ego---. What bothers me is the lack of electricity in the minds of young pakistanis---. They just want to worship the demigods that their elders had created for them---. They want to lie to hide their shortcomings----

I appreciate you making this statement.

 

[A G 1046]

Hi,

Looking at these so many posts----its is amazing and it is funny---you get to to understand---the eyes read what the mind is thinking---or in other words---the mind has already made it up what it wants to read---.

The M2k purchase was the best during the 80's and the 90's---the M2k-7 procurement was best during the early 2000 for a stop gap---not now---.

As for JF17---it is another 5 to 10 years away from being a potent platform---and only and only if it has a 1st grade BVR missile and aesa radar.

What is sad is that you people want the best and the latest for yourself---but when it comes to your motherland---she is hardly worthy of left overs---.

Losing the french for the chinese equipment was a terrible decision. You people keep hearing the paf say----JF 17 is our and without sanctions----okay---that is well and fine---but when you talk about JF 17---you have to ask---jf 17 is good in contest against which enemy aircraft---You want to procure 150---250 JF17's---okay---well and good---but then you must ask----which opponwent is it going to take a stand against---. That is a the general and basic question for any defence related discussion / argument---.

It always boils down to---what is your equipment going to do in the time of your need---under what circumstances it can be used to the best of its abilities and against what.

Chak Bamu---thank you for your post---. As I m getting older---I don't get upset for the personal digs---it does not bother me and does not hurt my ego---. What bothers me is the lack of electricity in the minds of young pakistanis---. They just want to worship the demigods that their elders had created for them---. They want to lie to hide their shortcomings----

I appreciate you making this statement.

Jane do Khan Saheb they wont understand it now like they dint get it earlier ....jane do

 

[Panther 57]

Operations and procurement planners spend a lot of time deliberation. They take into consideration many aspects which people outside the game seldom comprehend or understand. This should answer any doubts on why JF-17 procuremet, non-procurement of M2K and use of F-16 against drones

 

[fatman17]

Today in history
20 Aug 1982
PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate I order

 

[Chak Bamu]

Ummm.... I think that even though some think PAF made a mistake going for JF-17, in our current situation we can hardly hope for anything better. Our circumstances have made the rationale against this supposed mistake disappear. We are going through a necessary rite of passage as a nation as we define ourselves in this day & age. This confusion shall lift in a few years.

If anyone thinks that JF-17 is built to take on the might of IAF, then they are sadly mistaken. It is a light workhorse designed to be cheap to operate and maintain and have the ability to achieve a high sortie rate. I do not see it going deep into hostile airspace. The KEY question is whether it can survive defending our own airspace? The answer to that question is anybody's guess. But since it went through two design iterations before PT-04, I hope that its design philosophy has incorporated results of future threat analysis. The avionics are upgradeable, so is the engine. With an improvement in our economy, I am sure that we can go for AESA radar and other avionics upgrades. I am not too sure about the engine, but supposedly RD-93 can be set for higher performance with a penalty to engine life. In a war that might be done. Who knows.

Personally I do not think that a war is likely. We just need our foes to understand that it would cost them dearly to cross into our airspace.

Beside the above, I would support getting a heavy and hard-hitting long range two-engine behemoth for defending our seas. A squadron of J-11 would be excellent. But can we make that happen? I doubt it.

EDIT: I am cross posting my comment to JF-17 thread. Mods pls delete this post if it is in violation of forum rules.

 

[MastanKhan]

Operations and procurement planners spend a lot of time deliberation. They take into consideration many aspects which people outside the game seldom comprehend or understand. This should answer any doubts on why JF-17 procuremet, non-procurement of M2K and use of F-16 against drones

Hi,

The planners of paf are pi--ss poor and pathtic. Have you ever seen me condemn the army planners in a similar manner regarding procurements---or the navy planners---I think never ever---.

I have commented on the army for not taking the right steps in taking out al qaeda operatives at tora bora---but not their equipment. Through thick or thin---pak army hs always maintained its edge----regardless of the circumstance---.

About the navy---poor as though it maybe---with whatever resources it could muster---through begging borrowing or whatever means---pak navy has maintained itself to be the best under the given circumstance and resources---..

But it is the air force that we cherish the most---we brag the most about---we put it head and shoulders above anything else---in the skies is the God Almighty---and below our Lord is the pakistan air force---. That is how a pakistani looks at its air force.

Chak Bamu---if the JF 17 cannot take on the su 30---then what is the purpose of this air craft. The GW1 and GW2 have shown us that an adversary with larger inferior equipment will be defeated by the opponent who has larger superior equipment.

The superiority of equipment in larger numbers will always over come the equal inferiority in larger numbers all the time.

It is not enough to say---" our foe needs to understand that the war will be costly "----it is like talking from a position of weakness from the gitgo.

The problem and issue that paks cannot understand and comprehend is the potency of a superior eletronically enhanced weapons system in large numbers over an inferior lesser capable weapons system in lesser numbers---.

They cannot understand how the larger system will overpower the lesser system without giving it a chance to strike back with any substance.

The RD93 engine has enough power---more power is not going to make it any more potent or deadly---. Todays bvr's and wvr's don't care if you have 10% more power or 20% more power in your engine----when they come for you---they will get you---they are an equal oppurtunity destroyer.

Being smaller---your only savings grace would be a strong radar and a missile which has a higher kill ratio at longer distances. Your enemy would not want to merge if it can avoid it---.

So---then the bottomline ---paf needs to get more of Blk52's as there is hardly anything out there that is available at a reasonable price---that gives the same bang for the buck.

Even though war maybe inevitable but the reason for war has not diminished---but rather increased in intensity---. The enemy knows that and is becoming incessantly more belligerant and provocative. Every oppurtunity that pakistan has had to get ahead---has been neutralized by the adversary.

Pakistan's air space is violated by the adversay at its discretion---because it knows that the paf does not have much to show off.

Pakistanis must then ask this question---if the air force cannot win them a war or keep the enemy away from the borders---then why spend so much on i!