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Pakistan did not oppose US-India deal, says Zardari

oh nuclear deal acha ... oh..... the one that cooled down after Russia sold you migs :P ....

hahaha American nuclear technology in Russian hands like that will be allowed

In case you did not followed news russian supply unit did not connect with space station so in response, Americans sent home 7-8 alleged russian spies etc ...

You had your chance but you choose russia with the mig purchase and nuclear deal big time snub for US policy makers

Yep ... nuclear technology .....lol

US will not even give you guys pani poori dhaba
 
Well, to me it seems that back in the days of Musharraf era there were talks about the peace process being 'irreversible'. But more importantly, it would not have made any difference if Pakistan really protested or not. Musharraf is on record to have claimed that, yes, India is getting the nuclear deal from America but it also requires India to 'open' up its facilities--not really true. I think it was kind of sour-grapes on Musharraf's behalf.

But my question to all: Why should Pakistan be bothered with more nuclear reactors for 'energy' needs or for weapon needs? I mean, if North Korea can fire one or two 'dud' missiles and still manage to prevent an American attack then Pakistan is certainly light-years ahead as far as the M.A.D is concerned with India? Also, from my understanding, simply making better management of energy and water resources inside Pakistan AND/OR making reasonable adjustments with India over the Indus River water would benefit Pakistan's needs better than a few more contracts with the nuclear energy/weapons with China.

I must confess I am ignorant about these issues. But my hunch is that there are not enough people questioning Pakistan's approach. Pakistan has precious few resources and China does not give out 'free' stuff to anyone. I work for a government govt. in America and I can tell you the waste--the $500 hammer--is humongous and for real! And Pakistan and other 3rd world countries are probably far more wasteful in using State resources.

Am I completely wrong here?!!
 
pls provide the source saying pakistan had supported the india-us deal. dont show this post because deal is already finalized. thanks
Pakistan did all it could to raise the bogey and failed.

This just self-propaganda for some help.

please provide any source that show that Pakistan not oppose India-US deal

Please provide the evidence supporting the contention that Pakistan opposed the Indian exemption - all the sources Indians have so far provided show Pakistan as opposing a discriminatory approach towards exemptions, not the Indian exemption itself.

The reason Pakistan could not logically oppose the Indian exemption unconditionally, was because Pakistan itself wanted an NSG exemption and acceptance of its nuclear status.
 
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Mohammad Sadiq, a spokesman for the Pakistani Foreign Ministry, confirmed the contents of the letter, which he said was distributed to IAEA members. He said: “There should be a model agreement that could be signed with any country that meets the criteria. It should not be country-specific.”

Hutchroy, lets not cherry-pick sentences. The Pakistani FM spokesman quite clearly outlines the context of the Pakistani objections, as highlighted above.

The objections were not just for the sake of objecting because India was getting an NSG exemption, but because Pakistan opposed an arbitrary and discriminatory means for giving a nation an exemption. Had the NSG instead outlined a standard and process under which ALL NPT non-signatories could qualify after meeting conditions that would be the same for all parties.
 
Well, to me it seems that back in the days of Musharraf era there were talks about the peace process being 'irreversible'. But more importantly, it would not have made any difference if Pakistan really protested or not. Musharraf is on record to have claimed that, yes, India is getting the nuclear deal from America but it also requires India to 'open' up its facilities--not really true. I think it was kind of sour-grapes on Musharraf's behalf.

But my question to all: Why should Pakistan be bothered with more nuclear reactors for 'energy' needs or for weapon needs? I mean, if North Korea can fire one or two 'dud' missiles and still manage to prevent an American attack then Pakistan is certainly light-years ahead as far as the M.A.D is concerned with India? Also, from my understanding, simply making better management of energy and water resources inside Pakistan AND/OR making reasonable adjustments with India over the Indus River water would benefit Pakistan's needs better than a few more contracts with the nuclear energy/weapons with China.

I must confess I am ignorant about these issues. But my hunch is that there are not enough people questioning Pakistan's approach. Pakistan has precious few resources and China does not give out 'free' stuff to anyone. I work for a government govt. in America and I can tell you the waste--the $500 hammer--is humongous and for real! And Pakistan and other 3rd world countries are probably far more wasteful in using State resources.

Am I completely wrong here?!!

You are partially wrong here...

The main concern of Pakistan is surely not an all out US attack.Currently,the economic instability,the internal security issues, radicalization of the society,power problems are the issues that the state of Pakistan needs to address.We all know that Pakistan has enough weapon in its inventory to scare off any immature venture.But,that just not the point.Pakistan has to move along with the World in order to address the issues mentioned above.It cannot afford to act like North Korea and face bans on anything and everything.

So far as the power deficit in Pakistan is concerned ,it may go as high as 4000 MWh in the coming winters.Now thats quite a bit of deficit for a country with present consumption of 72.2 billion kWh.
Hydro power is a good option,but the problem with it is it cannot guarantee power supply through out the year.The power generation units work only when there is enough water in the reservoirs.So,logically the GoP wants to go for those sources which will provide the best bang for the buck and shall ensure a constant,steady supply.The GoP is cash starved these days.It cannot afford to venture into Hydro power projects,that require a lot of time,a lot of money,a lot of expertise,a lot of uncertainty(as the power generation depends upon the water flow itself) and not a steady supply in return.These projects are only good to ease the pressure off the non-renewable sources that serve as backbone of the grid.They cannot be trusted as chief source of energy.

I hope that helps...
 
@nForce,
Thank you for the reply. I am still not convinced that the nuclear energy is the best 'bang for the buck' for Pakistan? I mean Pakistan has nuclear power plants for 3+ decades but their contribution to the national grid seems very low. May be a lot of nuclear fuel goes into making weapons which, in my opinion, is not really needed.
There is massive power theft in Pakistan. There is need to line up canals to lessen loss. There are a number of ways Pakistan can address its energy requirements and I am not convinced at all that nuclear energy is the best route to go.
My main argument is that that, having witnessed the proverbial $500 hammer in America I think there is enormous wastage in Pakistan. There needs to be more debate about the role of nuclear power and nuclear weaponry in Pakistan and that does not seem to exist.
 
Does the US government ever care opposition from a country which also receives monetary assistance provided by the US tax payers ?
 
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Does the US government ever care opposition from a country which also receives monetary assistance proved by the US tax payers ?
The legitimacy of a position (and Pakistan's position is legitimate) and getting certain nations to recognize the legitimacy of a position are two different issues.
 
Does the US government ever care opposition from a country which also receives monetary assistance proved by the US tax payers ?

US provides aid cuz pakistan is a ally on War on Terror, who else will US listen to if it doesnt listen to an Ally?

Lets not forget how corrupt politicians are i wont be surprised if some money exchanged hands.
 
The legitimacy of a position (and Pakistan's position is legitimate) and getting certain nations to recognize the legitimacy of a position are two different issues.

That is a fact we all recognize when the relevant parties are equal partners. However, with all due respect , are we the equal partner vis a vis the United States ?
 
Please provide the evidence supporting the contention that Pakistan opposed the Indian exemption - all the sources Indians have so far provided show Pakistan as opposing a discriminatory approach towards exemptions, not the Indian exemption itself.

The reason Pakistan could not logically oppose the Indian exemption unconditionally, was because Pakistan itself wanted an NSG exemption and acceptance of its nuclear status.


The text of the letter from Pakistan to IAEA Board. One line about discrimination out of 20 other objections and you latch on to that ignoring the tone of rest of the letter. Please note I am not debating whether rest of the objections were justified or not, simply that the discrimination related objection was one of the many objections Pakistan raised in a hope to scuttle the deal. Having failed, it is simply resorting to coloring the whole objection as something based on the alleged discriminatory nature of the agreement since that provides the highest degree of face save..


PERMANENT MISSION OF PAKISTAN TO THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANISATIONS, VIENNA


No. UN-19/08/India 18 July 2008

Excellency,

As you may be aware the international Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) has recently circulated the draft text of a proposed Safeguards Agreement between India and the IAEA.

2. The Agreement is to be considered by the IAEA Board of Governors (BOG) and subsequently by the Nuclear Suppliers group (NSG). Evidently efforts are being made to rush through the agreement through the IAEA-BOG and the NSG.

3. In this regards the following points need to be kept in view:-

(i) The Safeguards Agreement was circulated to the BOG on 9 July 2008. Under its rules, it can be considered, at the earliest, 45 days later, i.e., 25 August 2008. Consideration of the Agreement cannot be placed on the Agenda for the BOG meeting on 01 August 2008.

(ii) There are no good technical or substantive reasons for the BOG to waive the 45 days rule. The political exigencies of either India or the US are not sufficient reason for the BOG to waive the 45 days rule which is designed to enable BOG members to carefully examine the content and implications of any Agreement so as to ensure that it serves the purpose of credible verification of non-diversion for which it is being concluded.

(iii) On the contrary, the unique and exceptional contents of the India-IAEA Agreement necessitates that time should be provided to BOG members to carefully study the Agreement before it is considered for approval.

(iv) The requirement for approval of a Safeguards Agreement by the BOG should not be considered a mere proforma exercise. Although the BOG has not sought to amend or reject previous Agreements, this was due to their broad adherence to the existing models for such Agreements (INFCIRC 66/Rev.2, INFCIRC 153 and voluntary offer agreements concluded with the NPT nuclear weapon States). The India-IAEA Agreement does not confirm to any of these models. The Agreement is a unique hybrid reflecting provisions of various models.

(v) It therefore requires careful consideration, particularly because it is likely to set a precedent for other States which are not members of the NPT and have military nuclear programmes.

(vi) The draft accords recognition to India as a country with “advanced nuclear technology”, despite the fact that there is no agreed definition of an “advanced nuclear technology” state.

(vii) A most disturbing feature of the Agreement is the reference and reflection in the Preamble to the India-U.S. Joint Statement of 18 July 2005. The Agreement (in preambular para 9, sub-para 2) specifically notes India’s “willingness” to “identify and separate civilian and military nuclear facilities”. Thus, the IAEA-BOG is being asked to recognize and accept India’s nuclear weapon status.


(viii) This preambular reference is in itself unique, as similar provisions do not exist in other such Agreements. The Preamble prejudges and contradicts the purpose of the Agreement, i.e., to ensure that peaceful nuclear activities do not contribute to the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Thus, if the agreement is to confirm to the “guidance documents” mentioned, this reference to the Indo-US Joint Statement in the preambular part of the Agreement should be deleted.

(ix) Moreover, INFCIRC 66/Rev.2 type agreements have so far been “facility specific”. This Agreement on the other hand is described as an “umbrella agreement”. Facilities to be safeguarded have not been listed. They will be added to the safeguard Agreement as they are notified by India. This raises valid questions. What is the purpose of the Agreement if the facilities to be safeguarded are not known?

(x) Despite India’s refusal to place its Breeder Reactors and its Thorium-based programme under safeguards, the draft recognizes India’s three-stage nuclear programme. This is gratuitous legitimization of potential nuclear proliferation and contrary to the IAEA’s objectives.

(xi) Such concerns are compounded further by other provisions of the Agreement, especially (a) the ambiguous provisions regarding conditions for the termination of the Safeguards Agreement; (b) access for India to the International fuel markets; and (c) unspecified “corrective measures” which India would be allowed to take to “ensure uninterrupted operation of its civilian nuclear reactors…”, contravening the continuation of IAEA safeguards in perpetuity.

(xii) As a consequence, India would be able to acquire nuclear fuel for the declared civilian facilities, build up a “strategic reserve” for the life-time of the reactors, and then terminate safeguards and divert part of the fuel for weapons purposes.

(xiii) The Agreement may indeed provide an incentive to India to conduct further nuclear weapons testing, since future termination of the Safeguards Agreement, after India has built up an adequate fuel reserve, would resolve India’s problems relating to the shortage of nuclear material for both its civilian and its nuclear weapons programme. However, the agreement does not even provide that further nuclear explosive testing would result in the termination of peaceful nuclear cooperation and the Safeguard Agreement.

(xiv) The reference to a “restricted document”. GOV/1621 of August 1972, as the yardstick for termination is unsatisfactory. The BOG cannot approve an agreement with secret clauses. It is vital to expressly incorporate the conditions for the termination of the safeguard Agreement.

(xv) There are some other provisions of the Agreement which raise concern. For example, paragraph 28 provides for the suspension of safeguards on “any parts of the facilities…..which are removed from maintenance or repair” This could open door for nuclear fuel and advanced technology provided to India to be diverted for weapons purposes.

(xvi) The draft does not indicate if India is willing to sign an IAEA Additional Protocol in respect of its civilian nuclear facilities.

(xvii) The legal and technical aspects flowing from the draft require in-depth examination and the IAEA board of Governors (BoG) and NSG are required to carefully weigh the consequences that may ensue from succumbing to “expediency” over “principles”.

(xviii) The IAEA statute does not provide for differentiation between member states on the basis of political consideration nor does it allow for special treatment for a particular state. Calling it an India-specific agreement is therefore unprecedented. Since the IAEA concludes safeguards agreements based on approved models, it will be important that any safeguards agreement adopted by the BoG in respect of India should be available as a model for other non-NPT states.

(xix) It is quite clear that the proposed agreement has no utility in advancing the cause of non-proliferation. On the contrary, it will enable and encourage further proliferation. And, apart from the consequences for the non-proliferation regime, the agreement threatens to increase the chances of nuclear arms race in the sub-continent.

4. As is clear from the foregoing, the proposed IAEA-India agreement and the unjustified call for an exemption to India alone from the NSG rules is discriminatory and dangerous. It is important to resist the drive to steamroll this agreement through this IAEA-BoG and the NSG. The short and long term consequences of the agreement necessitate that text be studied and any decision thereon taken after full deliberation. The overarching consideration in this respect should be to uphold the principles of non-discrimination and equity as well as regional and global peace and stability.

5. Pakistan expresses the hope that, on the basis of a close study of the document, other members of the BoG will join it in seeking appropriate amendments to the Agreement when it is considered in the BoG.

6. Please accept, Excellency, the assurances of my highest consideration.

Ambassador/Permanent Representative

Ambassadors/Permanent Representatives of Member States of the IAEA Board of Governors and Member States of the Nuclear Suppliers Group, Vienna.
 
The text of the letter from Pakistan to IAEA Board. One line about discrimination out of 20 other objections and you latch on to that ignoring the tone of rest of the letter. Please note I am not debating whether rest of the objections were justified or not, simply that the discrimination related objection was one of the many objections Pakistan raised in a hope to scuttle the deal. Having failed, it is simply resorting to coloring the whole objection as something based on the alleged discriminatory nature of the agreement since that provides the highest degree of face save..

Read the letter again without the need to interpret it to bash Pakistan - almost all the concerns raised in the letter relate in some way to the fact that the process appears arbitrary and discriminatory and leaves too many loopholes in the safeguards agreement, and not just because 'India is getting an exemption'.
 
That is a fact we all recognize when the relevant parties are equal partners. However, with all due respect , are we the equal partner vis a vis the United States ?
There is no country in the world currently that can be considered an 'equal partner of the US. However, there are many countries that offer the US economic and strategic benefits that the US is willing to 'trade' over. Such a 'trade' was made over the Indian NSG exemption.

US benefits in courting Pakistan are currently limited to the strategic goal of 'defeating terrorism', but at the same time there are US goals and biases (Muslim country with nuclear weapons, potential of being destabilized, Indian opposition to any strategic sops to Pakistan because of her obsession with Pakistan - and US interests in India), that neutralize the degree to which the US will accommodate Pakistani interests.

Again, Pakistan's position on the issue is legitimate, but the question is one of getting the international community to end its double standards and discrimination.
 
Read the letter again without the need to interpret it to bash Pakistan - almost all the concerns raised in the letter relate in some way to the fact that the process appears arbitrary and discriminatory and leaves too many loopholes in the safeguards agreement, and not just because 'India is getting an exemption'.

There is no intent to bash Pakistan. I do not question the right of Pakistan to oppose the deal in its national interest. Only the contention that it did not.

Almost all plausible reasons have been highlighted in the letter. From the deal being unfair, discriminatory to the timing of the deal, the fact it will allow India to manipulate the fuel, allow India to conduct tests in future and the fact that India is not promising to sign the NPT.

To term the objections as just based on the discriminatory nature of the deal is purely an being selective in comprehension. Its just that at that time, it was an instinctive reaction from Pakistan to oppose anything that set India apart. Now that Pakistan is going for a similar deal, the intent of all the statements coming out of Pakistan is to color its earlier objections as some thing more benign and honorable..
 

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