Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[ZAC1]

Turks have assured timely deliveries of all 30 to Pakistan.

would u like to tell the dates?
in my opinion pakistan should produce nuclear missiles as much as possible.world dnt want to sell weapons to us. sanctions, delays etc Story repeating

 

[cabatli_53]

China will keep on adding new weapon systems to their helicopters where as same cannot be said for Turks.

What are those new weapon systems China apply to their helicopters but Turks can not ?

 

[Areesh]

When these choppers would be delivered to Pakistan?

Any dates?

 

[doorstar]

When these choppers would be delivered to Pakistan?

Any dates?

as far as I can see on the 25th of never, despite their claims to the contrary Turks do NOT have the authority to sell it to you (Americans and Europeans do).

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well once the new Turkish engine is complete , we will be free to import abundant supply of Helicopters

 

[Nasr]

You make a lot of sense. I dont know why army aviation would like to have Turk equipment even though military future of our country lies with China.

The approach the military is taking is of "not having all their eggs in one basket." It stems from the lessons drawn in the 1965/1971 Wars, where victory was within Pakistan's grasp and was stifled by having majority of our military hardware comprising of American origin. 1965 in particular, where Kashmir was attainable as Pakistan had acheived Air Dominance which would've allowed Pakistan Army to pierce through and sever india's connecting artery to the Vale. However, American sanctions hit us hard, crippling Pakistan Air Force's ability to maintain the momentum and Air Dominance. Without Air Dominance, Pakistan Army could not and would not be able to cut off india's supply-lines at Aknaur choke-point.

Hence Pakistan Military adopted a two-pronged strategem. Whereby diversity in hardware was of primary importance and in the same breath, to work toward becoming self-reliant. The latter strategy gave birth to successful projects like Al-Khalid Main Battle Tank, JF-17 Thunder Combat Aircraft, Agosta-90B Submarines and F-22P Frigates. Whereas the former brought procurement diversification such as Swedish Erieye Airborne Early Warning aircraft, British Griffon-2000 Hovercraft, Germany/France RAS-72 Seaeagle Maritime Patrol Aircraft, Italy Spada-2000 Air Defense System and so on.

So as you can see, the figures speak for themselves.

China is making great strides in military tech. China will keep on adding new weapon systems to their helicopters where as same cannot be said for Turks.

China has been able to harness the technology, by learning and studying the tech. This has made China least vulnerable to Western Sanctions. The approach that China has, is a very simple one, achieve your objectives, by any means necessary. And China has proven that it is not subject to Western Sanctions. In fact, the current trade war between China and America is proof of this stance.

Turkey on the other hand, is not China, nor could it ever hope to emulate China, or Russia for that matter. Turkey has a great deal of dependence on the West, in terms of military hardware. As with any great power nation, dependency on "Core Military Hardware" that are the backbone of any military, is nil. The Core Military Hardware is always designed, coded and manufactured by great power nations. Where Core Military Hardware constitutes of combat aircraft, surface combat ships, submarines, main battle tanks, military transport aircraft, aerial tanker aircraft, airborne early warning radar aircraft, auxillary surface ships, air defence network and so on. Turkey has none of that!

However, I want to know more about your comparison between Russian copters and the new Turk ones. You seem to paint a very bleak picture of our decision.

For starters, the most crucial aspect of any acquisition for Pakistan, is that it needs to be "immune to Western sanctions." And the T-129, straight of the bat, has been hampered by American interference. Where the US Department of Defence has refused to issue export license to Turkey for the sale of 30 T-129 Atak helicopter gunships to Pakistan.

The LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engine, is jointly designed and manufactured between the American Honeywell Aerospace Co and British Rolls Royce Co. This engine is the power plant that flies the Turkish T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Without the engine, Turkey is now embarrassingly looking to find alternative power plant for its helo. Causing delays to the $1.5 billion deal that Pakistan signed on for 30 Atak helos.

https://ahvalnews.com/atak/turkeys-atak-helicopter-sale-pakistan-stalled-over-missing-engines-sol#1

Then as if things weren't bad enough for Turkey with the T-129 Atak engines, with US State Dept not issuing export license. There is the Turkish Military intervention in Syria. Dubbed the "Olive Branch" Peace Operation, Turkey launched an illegal ingress into Syrian territory to fight and ward-off CIA-Sponsored Kurdish insurgents, the YPG. With heavy Turkish military hardware rolling into Norther Syria, the fight was on.

Not so long after Turkey's military invasion into Northern Syria, the Turkish military suffered the humiliating loss of it's brand spanking new, T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Shot down, by none other than the insurgent group whom Turkey defines as terrorists. Needless to say, the news was looked at with scrutiny, world wide. And this wasn't good publicity for the Turkish military industrial complex, which has grown in size and reputation, off late.

http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2018/02/turkish-t129-attack-helicopter-shot-down-afrin.html

Comparitively, the Kamov Ka-50 Black Shark and the Mil Mi-28 Havoc. Both Mil and Kamov are vastly experience helicopter designers and manufacturers. Both Ka-52 Aligators and Mi-28 Havocs were in live combat operations in the liberation of Palmyra, Syria. Mi-28s also are on active duty combat against Nusra terrorists, in Hama, Syria. Both helicopter gunship combat experience, under operator, Russian Military.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201903231073488604-mi28nm-helicopter-syria-russia/

https://tass.com/defense/933891

Elsewhere, Iraqi Military deployed Mi-28s in combat against ISIS, in Ramadi. Using the deadly gunship with effective results.

So, there you have it, my analysis and conclusion on why Pakistan Military has made a mistake on procuring sanction prone, T-129 Atak from Turkey. Nothing against the Turks personally, but Turkey really needs to get itself out of the clutches of America.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Turkey is manufacturing it's own local Helicopter Engine


First locally made helicopter already delivered to Turkey

 

[araz]

The approach the military is taking is of "not having all their eggs in one basket." It stems from the lessons drawn in the 1965/1971 Wars, where victory was within Pakistan's grasp and was stifled by having majority of our military hardware comprising of American origin. 1965 in particular, where Kashmir was attainable as Pakistan had acheived Air Dominance which would've allowed Pakistan Army to pierce through and sever india's connecting artery to the Vale. However, American sanctions hit us hard, crippling Pakistan Air Force's ability to maintain the momentum and Air Dominance. Without Air Dominance, Pakistan Army could not and would not be able to cut off india's supply-lines at Aknaur choke-point.

Hence Pakistan Military adopted a two-pronged strategem. Whereby diversity in hardware was of primary importance and in the same breath, to work toward becoming self-reliant. The latter strategy gave birth to successful projects like Al-Khalid Main Battle Tank, JF-17 Thunder Combat Aircraft, Agosta-90B Submarines and F-22P Frigates. Whereas the former brought procurement diversification such as Swedish Erieye Airborne Early Warning aircraft, British Griffon-2000 Hovercraft, Germany/France RAS-72 Seaeagle Maritime Patrol Aircraft, Italy Spada-2000 Air Defense System and so on.

So as you can see, the figures speak for themselves.



China has been able to harness the technology, by learning and studying the tech. This has made China least vulnerable to Western Sanctions. The approach that China has, is a very simple one, achieve your objectives, by any means necessary. And China has proven that it is not subject to Western Sanctions. In fact, the current trade war between China and America is proof of this stance.

Turkey on the other hand, is not China, nor could it ever hope to emulate China, or Russia for that matter. Turkey has a great deal of dependence on the West, in terms of military hardware. As with any great power nation, dependency on "Core Military Hardware" that are the backbone of any military, is nil. The Core Military Hardware is always designed, coded and manufactured by great power nations. Where Core Military Hardware constitutes of combat aircraft, surface combat ships, submarines, main battle tanks, military transport aircraft, aerial tanker aircraft, airborne early warning radar aircraft, auxillary surface ships, air defence network and so on. Turkey has none of that!



For starters, the most crucial aspect of any acquisition for Pakistan, is that it needs to be "immune to Western sanctions." And the T-129, straight of the bat, has been hampered by American interference. Where the US Department of Defence has refused to issue export license to Turkey for the sale of 30 T-129 Atak helicopter gunships to Pakistan.

The LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engine, is jointly designed and manufactured between the American Honeywell Aerospace Co and British Rolls Royce Co. This engine is the power plant that flies the Turkish T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Without the engine, Turkey is now embarrassingly looking to find alternative power plant for its helo. Causing delays to the $1.5 billion deal that Pakistan signed on for 30 Atak helos.

https://ahvalnews.com/atak/turkeys-atak-helicopter-sale-pakistan-stalled-over-missing-engines-sol#1

Then as if things weren't bad enough for Turkey with the T-129 Atak engines, with US State Dept not issuing export license. There is the Turkish Military intervention in Syria. Dubbed the "Olive Branch" Peace Operation, Turkey launched an illegal ingress into Syrian territory to fight and ward-off CIA-Sponsored Kurdish insurgents, the YPG. With heavy Turkish military hardware rolling into Norther Syria, the fight was on.

Not so long after Turkey's military invasion into Northern Syria, the Turkish military suffered the humiliating loss of it's brand spanking new, T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Shot down, by none other than the insurgent group whom Turkey defines as terrorists. Needless to say, the news was looked at with scrutiny, world wide. And this wasn't good publicity for the Turkish military industrial complex, which has grown in size and reputation, off
http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2018/02/turkish-t129-attack-helicopter-shot-down-afrin.html

Comparitively, the Kamov Ka-50 Black Shark and the Mil Mi-28 Havoc. Both Mil and Kamov are vastly experience helicopter designers and manufacturers. Both Ka-52 Aligators and Mi-28 Havocs were in live combat operations in the liberation of Palmyra, Syria. Mi-28s also are on active duty combat against Nusra terrorists, in Hama, Syria. Both helicopter gunship combat experience, under operator, Russian Military.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201903231073488604-mi28nm-helicopter-syria-russia/

https://tass.com/defense/933891

Elsewhere, Iraqi Military deployed Mi-28s in combat against ISIS, in Ramadi. Using the deadly gunship with effective results.

So, there you have it, my analysis and conclusion on why Pakistan Military has made a mistake on procuring sanction prone, T-129 Atak from Turkey. Nothing against the Turks personally, but Turkey really needs to get itself out of the clutches of America.

Thank you for a good analysis of the prevailing situation with regards to PAA helo acquisition. I am sure PAA would have taken these factors into account. There are a few simplifications which I would humbly want to point out.
A. Russian products have not been available till fairly recently. Rosoboron export has stuck to its demand for hard cash and lack of flexibility with regards to weapons incorporation from foreign vendors. The cash factor is what is killing any prospects of a Russo Pak deal although there have always bèen doubts expressed about whether Russia will actually sell any advanced helos to Pak lands( let us at least count it as a factor).
B. The Chinese Z10 was trialled extensively in Pakistan and returned with a requirement to make changes. These are well highlighted. The Chinese have apparently made changes and it all depends on how the the Z10 ME now performs in hot and high temperatures for us to make a choice. However, barring depot level maintenance we will not be getting anything out of it. So our dependence will continue.
C. The T 129 offered Paklands a true opportunity to enter into helo manufacturing initially by manufacturing some parts and perhaps later by having a local assembly with limited manufacturing. This makes sense as Turk Cost of manufacturing remains high and therefore it is a mutually beneficial exercise. Knowing fully well that once you procure a product subsequent acquisitions from the same vendor become a norm we will probably enter in with some more production rights with ATAK 2. Even if we do not get the T129, due to engine problems we will eventually have a Turkish engine by 2023. This will increase our options with regards to having a secure mode of engine supply and local manufacturing and subassemblies which will be our step in to helo manufacturing.
D. With T129 we will get western compatible and standard equipment which is where we want to be when we start manufacturing. To date Western equipment gives a more robust and reliable performance as against Chinese equipment. Pak lands has been using aWestern equipment and so its forces are used to and demand the necessary standards which both the Chinese and the Russians fail to match or are now achieving parity with.PAC has had to make quite a few changes in the Thunder to get it to the srtandards it is today. The same has been the case with the F22Ps which Paklands acquired. Obviously Pakistan wants to incorporate western standards in its products and Turkey provides us that window into the West we have been wanting but being prevented from. This maybe the reason for the recent spate of fontracts going to Turkey from Paklands.
The Chinese contrary to public perception have recently not been as open to sharing tech as they had been previously. They want Paklands to buy finished products from them rather than achieve manufacturing rights. Even where local manufacturing contract have been gained the tech transfer has been minimal. Turkey in view of being a newer provider currently wants business and is eager to share products as with relative maturity of Pak manufacturing standards it find Paklands a good outsourcing medium for its products. There is mutual obvious benefit in this.
This iswhy I think Pakistan has made a few recent overtures towards Turkey. These remain my thoughts based on personal reading and assessment and can be entirely wrong. However this is how it makes sense to me to go Turkish in spite of a few setbacks.
A

 

[Path-Finder]

Turkey is manufacturing it's own local Helicopter Engine


First locally made helicopter already delivered to Turkey

this will have to be tested in Pakistan and along with other things it can be 3 years until T129 comes into service. a guesstimate!

 

[V. Makarov]

Thank

The approach the military is taking is of "not having all their eggs in one basket." It stems from the lessons drawn in the 1965/1971 Wars, where victory was within Pakistan's grasp and was stifled by having majority of our military hardware comprising of American origin. 1965 in particular, where Kashmir was attainable as Pakistan had acheived Air Dominance which would've allowed Pakistan Army to pierce through and sever india's connecting artery to the Vale. However, American sanctions hit us hard, crippling Pakistan Air Force's ability to maintain the momentum and Air Dominance. Without Air Dominance, Pakistan Army could not and would not be able to cut off india's supply-lines at Aknaur choke-point.

Hence Pakistan Military adopted a two-pronged strategem. Whereby diversity in hardware was of primary importance and in the same breath, to work toward becoming self-reliant. The latter strategy gave birth to successful projects like Al-Khalid Main Battle Tank, JF-17 Thunder Combat Aircraft, Agosta-90B Submarines and F-22P Frigates. Whereas the former brought procurement diversification such as Swedish Erieye Airborne Early Warning aircraft, British Griffon-2000 Hovercraft, Germany/France RAS-72 Seaeagle Maritime Patrol Aircraft, Italy Spada-2000 Air Defense System and so on.

So as you can see, the figures speak for themselves.



China has been able to harness the technology, by learning and studying the tech. This has made China least vulnerable to Western Sanctions. The approach that China has, is a very simple one, achieve your objectives, by any means necessary. And China has proven that it is not subject to Western Sanctions. In fact, the current trade war between China and America is proof of this stance.

Turkey on the other hand, is not China, nor could it ever hope to emulate China, or Russia for that matter. Turkey has a great deal of dependence on the West, in terms of military hardware. As with any great power nation, dependency on "Core Military Hardware" that are the backbone of any military, is nil. The Core Military Hardware is always designed, coded and manufactured by great power nations. Where Core Military Hardware constitutes of combat aircraft, surface combat ships, submarines, main battle tanks, military transport aircraft, aerial tanker aircraft, airborne early warning radar aircraft, auxillary surface ships, air defence network and so on. Turkey has none of that!



For starters, the most crucial aspect of any acquisition for Pakistan, is that it needs to be "immune to Western sanctions." And the T-129, straight of the bat, has been hampered by American interference. Where the US Department of Defence has refused to issue export license to Turkey for the sale of 30 T-129 Atak helicopter gunships to Pakistan.

The LHTEC T800-4A turboshaft engine, is jointly designed and manufactured between the American Honeywell Aerospace Co and British Rolls Royce Co. This engine is the power plant that flies the Turkish T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Without the engine, Turkey is now embarrassingly looking to find alternative power plant for its helo. Causing delays to the $1.5 billion deal that Pakistan signed on for 30 Atak helos.

https://ahvalnews.com/atak/turkeys-atak-helicopter-sale-pakistan-stalled-over-missing-engines-sol#1

Then as if things weren't bad enough for Turkey with the T-129 Atak engines, with US State Dept not issuing export license. There is the Turkish Military intervention in Syria. Dubbed the "Olive Branch" Peace Operation, Turkey launched an illegal ingress into Syrian territory to fight and ward-off CIA-Sponsored Kurdish insurgents, the YPG. With heavy Turkish military hardware rolling into Norther Syria, the fight was on.

Not so long after Turkey's military invasion into Northern Syria, the Turkish military suffered the humiliating loss of it's brand spanking new, T-129 Atak helicopter gunship. Shot down, by none other than the insurgent group whom Turkey defines as terrorists. Needless to say, the news was looked at with scrutiny, world wide. And this wasn't good publicity for the Turkish military industrial complex, which has grown in size and reputation, off late.

http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2018/02/turkish-t129-attack-helicopter-shot-down-afrin.html

Comparitively, the Kamov Ka-50 Black Shark and the Mil Mi-28 Havoc. Both Mil and Kamov are vastly experience helicopter designers and manufacturers. Both Ka-52 Aligators and Mi-28 Havocs were in live combat operations in the liberation of Palmyra, Syria. Mi-28s also are on active duty combat against Nusra terrorists, in Hama, Syria. Both helicopter gunship combat experience, under operator, Russian Military.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201903231073488604-mi28nm-helicopter-syria-russia/

https://tass.com/defense/933891

Elsewhere, Iraqi Military deployed Mi-28s in combat against ISIS, in Ramadi. Using the deadly gunship with effective results.

So, there you have it, my analysis and conclusion on why Pakistan Military has made a mistake on procuring sanction prone, T-129 Atak from Turkey. Nothing against the Turks personally, but Turkey really needs to get itself out of the clutches of America.

Thank you so much for clarifying the situation and writing a good detailed report. Really appreciate it.

Dear @araz are saying that the Turk copters are sought in an effort to integrate western systems into them. I think China is at a stage where their weapon systems are formidable enough to be trusted against their western counterparts. Its time to divorce the West and work towards good military cooperation with China because now the west looks to Pakistan as an extension of China's political and economical might and sanctions of all equipment is almost certain in the future. You see, men from the deep state in the USA will always veto any further dealings with Pakistan.

As far as Turkey is concerned, @Nasr you are right to say that Turkey still lacks the manufacturing capabilities of "Core Military Hardware". Only great powers are manufacturing them. China is one of them, which can provide Pakistan, all across the board military support.

Its understood that Pakistan cannot invest in making literally all the defence equipment the armed forces use, and hence its better to go for a core military hardware manufacturer because if critical defence equipment like Fighter Aircraft, attack helis, Tanks and artillery are sanctioned, it could change the game. However things like Italian SPADA, Swedish AWACS are "force multipliers" and not as vital in a battle hence, diversification in those areas can be desired.

No matter from wherever we buy our Defence equipment, we have to adjust it to our own liking (which has a tendency to be western like) just like we did with the JF-17 etc.... If we buy from Turkey, we just have to do a little amount of work to make it totally integrated into our military infrastructure environment ,however, more work has to be done if we buy stuff from China. But in the end, the pain that we take to "Westernize" Chinese equipment to some degree, is totally worth it in the long run.

 

[cabatli_53]

Core Military Hardware" that are the backbone of any military, is nil. The Core Military Hardware is always designed, coded and manufactured by great power nations. Where Core Military Hardware constitutes of combat aircraft, surface combat ships, submarines, main battle tanks, military transport aircraft, aerial tanker aircraft, airborne early warning radar aircraft, auxillary surface ships, air defence network and so on. Turkey has none of that!

I kindly asked a question to related member regarding his above claim about “China apply new weapon to helicopters but Turks can’t”, but It seems He can not talk what He is spreading but seeking support from members to feel better. Your analyse has also attracted my attention. Could you please open it up more about What are those “core military hardware” that sole great powers have knowledge to supply for radars, auxiliary ships, tanker aircrafts, air defense network..etc? Electronics? Software? Links? IC? Processors? If you support your claims with some reliable sources to enlighten me, It will be appreciated...

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The T129 met the PAA's ops parameters, and the Turks were willing to sell those helicopters through a flexible layaway type financing program. If for whatever Turkey can't deliver, then the PAA doesn't send over money.

However, there are ways around the issue of the US blocking the CTS800. If the issue is Turkey (e.g., S-400, etc), then one option is to buy the engines separately and then assemble the T129 at PAC Kamra. The other option is to load an alternative, but proven engine. TAI is actually talking to Safran Group about this as we speak (source).

Is there a risk of a delay? Yes. But the IMF clearing out our national funds via austerity and repayments can also delay things further. As can some sudden CT/COIN surge somewhere. As can a fight with India over Kashmir.

Our best course of action moving forward, regardless of the T129 coming to fruition (but especially if it doesn't) is to work on producing ITAR-free helicopters in Pakistan.

If the T129 does land, that'll cover our high-altitude needs, but we need a heavyweight (9-10-ton class) to drive our anti-armor requirements. We need both an attack helicopter and a general purpose transport helicopter.

Options include:

• Turkey's ATAK 2 + 10-ton Helicopter;
• Denel Rooivalk Mk2 + Airbus Super Puma;
• and the Chinese Z-20 and Heavy Attack Helicopter.

I'd prefer the Denel Rooivalk Mk2 and Airbus Super Puma. These are two tried and proven designs, with the Puma drawing on immense economies-of-scale and widespread use.

The Super Puma is also a legacy platform, but it hasn't seen as much adoption as Airbus hoped as of late, so there's some leverage to bring its production to Pakistan.

Alternatively, we could even look at a joint-project with Airbus and Denel to revive the Oryx as a modern platform. We can mirror what Airbus and South Korea's KAI did with the KUH-1 Surion, but develop a pure ITAR-free variant.

 

[xbat]

Turkey is manufacturing it's own local Helicopter Engine


First locally made helicopter already delivered to Turkey

Correction, first engine is locally manufactured GE engine for Turkish black hawk program.
second engine is local one, which will serve ATAK as a new engine. This engine will be delivered to TA in 2020. so we have 1 year of development and X year of full test on heli.

 

[kenyannoobie]

no. these engines are from the Oryx. this was deliberately done to keep synergies with the Oryx medium lift helo we have


rafiki habari gani. hiyo ni matata ya mzungu
back to English.
We have been developing our own equipment for decades and cut reliance on external parties; exactly because of this nonsense of external engines etc etc; sanctions taught us the hard way never to rely on US or Europeans.
Across the continent, there is no need for gunships except in RSA or may be in Egypt which is why there was no lower tier; plus we were fighting the Cubans which were fielding Mi-24s at the time in Angola.

REALLY!? Look at our map-bordering the Horn where there's always at least 1 LIC running involving militias and proxies.

Some of the national governments are unstable eg Ethiopia or prone to military adventurism like Uganda and have armour regts.

What about Nigeria where BH in technicals regularly overrun NA coy bases? Tbh,there are tactical and intel failures over there but still.

 

[denel]

REALLY!? Look at our map-bordering the Horn where there's always at least 1 LIC running involving militias and proxies.


View attachment 578841

Some of the national governments are unstable eg Ethiopia or prone to military adventurism like Uganda and have armour regts.

What about Nigeria where BH in technicals regularly overrun NA coy bases? Tbh,there are tactical and intel failures over there but still.

Yes but none requires gunships like rooivalk. Nigeria is a basket case - they had to recruit ex. SANDF retired members to flush out Boko haram. Completely incapable.