Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

[Philip the Arab]

5th I can confirm. I was told this by Turk official in IDEAS 2018


You would need US permission for Cobras

It's an American upgrade so of course you would need permission for the upgrade.

 

[Imran Khan]

i was wondering what is thrice update? what did you guys want? a spaceship?

we buy choppers after 42 years sir and we will use these T-129 next 40 years i am sure

 

[Tipu7]

TAI already has a cobra modernization package with Aselsan. It uses the same avionics and flir as T129. Why would a country ordering 30 t129s prefer someone else instead of TAI ?

If you can kindly share more details and pics (HD) about this upgrade then it will be a favor.

 

[GriffinsRule]

If you can kindly share more details and pics (HD) about this upgrade then it will be a favor.

These Cobras are of Royal Bahrain Air Force, upgraded by under the deal signed in 2015 with TAI for $70MM USD. The first upgraded AH-1F made its maiden flight in September 2017 and the last helicopter will be upgraded and delivered by end of 2020. The picture posted above it from 2018.
Since the relations between SA and Turkey are not that great now, and Bahrain is in the Saudi camp, both sides are not going to be sharing much in terms of details. However the upgrade consists of avionics and displays already integrated in the T129 and the cockpit will be NVG compatible. Roketsan's 2.75inch CIRIT laser-guided ATGMs would also be integrated.

This was phase 1 of Bahrain's modernization plans. Under phase two, they were to acquire an additional new helicopter and T129 was a competitor but ended up losing out to the AH-1Z in 2016.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkey-to-upgrade-bahrains-cobra-attack-helicopters.382485/

There is a competing upgrade from the US for AH-1Fs that the Jordanians opted for.
https://news.northropgrumman.com/ne...llc-and-northrop-grumman-begin-flight-testing

Will be interesting to see which route PA will take in this regard, given that it planned to have both AH-1Zs and T-129s in its inventory.

Looking for more pictures of these two upgraded Cobras, came across this interesting link. I am sure PA would have taken this particular example gladly but it went to an underwater museum in the Red Sea. Thanks a LOT Jordan! haha
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a28509558/underwater-military-museum/

 

[Path-Finder]

These Cobras are of Royal Bahrain Air Force, upgraded by under the deal signed in 2015 with TAI for $70MM USD. The first upgraded AH-1F made its maiden flight in September 2017 and the last helicopter will be upgraded and delivered by end of 2020. The picture posted above it from 2018.
Since the relations between SA and Turkey are not that great now, and Bahrain is in the Saudi camp, both sides are not going to be sharing much in terms of details. However the upgrade consists of avionics and displays already integrated in the T129 and the cockpit will be NVG compatible. Roketsan's 2.75inch CIRIT laser-guided ATGMs would also be integrated.

This was phase 1 of Bahrain's modernization plans. Under phase two, they were to acquire an additional new helicopter and T129 was a competitor but ended up losing out to the AH-1Z in 2016.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkey-to-upgrade-bahrains-cobra-attack-helicopters.382485/

There is a competing upgrade from the US for AH-1Fs that the Jordanians opted for.
https://news.northropgrumman.com/ne...llc-and-northrop-grumman-begin-flight-testing

Will be interesting to see which route PA will take in this regard, given that it planned to have both AH-1Zs and T-129s in its inventory.

Looking for more pictures of these two upgraded Cobras, came across this interesting link. I am sure PA would have taken this particular example gladly but it went to an underwater museum in the Red Sea. Thanks a LOT Jordan! haha
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a28509558/underwater-military-museum/

there was a video of cobra being rebuilt in Kamara from this year! I can't find it.

 

[khanasifm]

there was a video of cobra being rebuilt in Kamara from this year! I can't find it.

Pac just did wiring upgrade, in reality 20 cobras were delivered for spares and another 20 in rebuilt flight status including some from Jordan. the ones for spares were complete aircraft with all wiring cut off , pak looks like did a pilot and recovered the ones delivered for spares, all or some into flight status

The older cobras were made night capable with night system the newer were not not sure if now all are upgraded


C-NITE


https://books.google.com/books/about/Army.html?id=bzdEAQAAIAAJ

 

[khanasifm]

 

[GriffinsRule]

View attachment 586209

View attachment 586210

View attachment 586211

First of, that Hughes engineer looks like Atta Ullah Essa Khelvi =D
Second, the C-NITE system is from the 70s era and needs to be replaced with updated FLIR and targeting sights. There are a lot of options to pick from out there.

 

[Signalian]

Thus the change in requirements, and thus the delays in T129 deliveries.

T-129 for PA has more of other issues (like engine) than an ATGM integration. The gunship can be inducted first and then new ATGM can then be deployed on it. Options of TOW or HELLFIRE or UMTAS are there.

 

[nomi007]

There are currently 3 alternative options on the table.

1. Pakistan buys the CTS800 separately from the US or UK, and then fits them into the T129 at PAC
2. Wait to integrate and test the T129 with a Safran turboshaft engine
3. Wait for the TEI TS1400 turboshaft engine

But IMO... I'd rather keep waiting and actually get in on the ATAK-2. Co-fund the program so that we get co-production (for all units), and induct those in numbers over the long-term.

Not too thrilled about the T129 or Z-10 as they're on the lighter side, and the fact that India could field 100+ similar types (HAL LCH).

I'd rather disrupt the balance and aim for 100+ heavies, if at the cost of a slower and longer-term induction rate. The good thing about the ATAK-2 is that it'll likely use the same engine and dynamic components as Turkey's 10-ton general purpose helicopter. So we can have both an attack helicopter and new mainstay transport helicopter for the next 50 years.

What the PAF is doing is IMO the right approach; shelve off-the-shelf purchases and focus on Project Azm.

Sure, waiting isn't great for forum junkies like us, but to be brutally frank, we're not fighting a war anytime soon and our gov't/mil leadership will duck away from one unless it is thrust upon them by forces out of their control (see the current Kashmir situation).

And if we're going to sit idle, then let's at least invest in programs with far more long-term payoff and deterrence value.

what is your opinion about Klimov VK-2500 engine, as an alternative ?

 

[Ali_Baba]

the ones for spares were complete aircraft with all wiring cut off , pak looks like did a pilot and recovered the ones delivered for spares, all or some into flight status
View attachment 586208

Odd. Did Jordan do this on instructions from the USA? I would have thought that they would be sold, "as is"..

It's an American upgrade so of course you would need permission for the upgrade.

The problem with the PAA AH-1Fs is their usage, and not just their "age".. they have been heavily used in the last 15years, so the question is how much airframe life is left, and can they be re-zero'ed effectively for an upgrade???

 

[cabatli_53]

Then I would rather see T-129 V2 (heavy) in sight of PA. However, these updating requirements will be based upon the need to have a proper/capable T-129 with everything to get the job done.

@cabatli_53

I believe The LHTEC engine will be received for T-129 without meeting any problem but, If US congress put an obstacle in front of us, then We might proceed our road with Atak-2 pratform which is going to be operational by 2023. A national engine development program is announced for Atak-2 but I hope the development timeline of turboshaft will catch the prototypes of Atak-2.

 

[cabatli_53]

Kotil: Turkey started developing a new attack helicoptet called T-629 which is going to have a weigh around T-129 and Atak-2.

 

[The Eagle]

Kotil: Turkey started developing a new attack helicoptet called T-629 which is going to have a weigh around T-129 and Atak-2.

Can you share more details? design, weaponry etc wise.
Thanks

 

[cabatli_53]

T-629 will have a weight of 6+t. Acc to Kotil, The design activities were completed and The test flight will be done in 1 years. I believe T-629 will be the helicopter that is mentioned as T-129 Block-2. A modified T-129 with better armor protection I believe.