Pakistan Air Force To Gain Superiority Over Indian Air Force

[Dazzler]

Phalcon is one of the best AWACS of the world...so don't compare it with erieye..

another claim without evidence, can you prove it? Phalcon is definitely among the best out there but how can you say it is better then Erieye which is being used by 5-6 nations worldwide?

 

[Abingdonboy]

I have no intention of creating a mess but i dont understand why you folks feel so uncomfortable on what is evidently noticeable as a fact? IAF AAR is same as PAF AAR but your's is superior because IAF has it? Funny.

PHALCON is superior to Erieye? and DRDO AWACS is superior to ZDK-03 for no apparent reason. This is an attitude which leads to false pride nothing more. The FACT is that the gap that once existed between two forces has been reducing sinc 2007 and continues to do so. PAF lacked even a modern fighter, radar and BVR, not to mention an adequate SAM coverage and EW equipment which are mostly covered today. The significant thing that will increase the gap is not the Rafale, to be countered by FC-20, but the FGFA! In the mean time, let us be realistic.

Yes the PHALCON is by far one of the best if not the best AWACs currently operated anywhere. It offers 360 degree detection with a 500-600km detection range. The Erieye is relatively older tech and offers 270 degree detection with a detection range of 400-450 KMs. Can't comment on DRDO AWACS vs ZDK-03 but I'd dare say DRDO AWACS was superior as it is later tech and has help from some of the leading radar experts in the world whilst the ZDK is a rip off of older tech.



And between Rafale and FC-20 there is little comparison the Rafale scores higher in all key parameters including weapons package, radar, EW suite, data fusion, low observabilty etc etc. it is the flawed belief that systems like FC-20 are superior to say the Rafale that are borne out of pride whilst my statemtn is based on verifiable FACTS.



And I never said that the IAF IL-78MKI was superior to the PAF IL-78MK that would make no sense. But the IAF is getting more advanced AARs such as A330 MRTT, FYI.

 

[sancho]

Today the situation is same for IAF & PAF

Pretty much, but the important point is, that we have to split the forces, while PAF has not. When you compare the fighter fleet with numbers and capabilities till 2015 it might look like this (only the comparable fighters with at least some 4th gen capabilities):

Low end 4th gen:

PAF - around -100 x JF 17 Block 1 and 2 + around 80 (possibly up to 100) x F16 MLU & Block 52s
IAF - around 100 x Mig 21 Bisons + around 43 x upgraded Mirage 2000-5 + around 60 x Mig 29SMT+ 40 x LCA MK1


Hi level 4th to 4.5 gen:

PAF - around 50 x JF 17 Block 3 + 36 x J10B
IAF - around 230 x MKI + 18 x Rafale

lo => 180 vs. 240
hi => 86 vs. 248
total => 266 vs. 488

Looks good in total numbers, but now split IAF fighters in half for western boarders and half for eastern and it suddenly looks different:

lo => 180 vs. 120
hi => 86 vs. 124
total => 266 vs. 244


The problem for IAF here is splitting forces in first place, since they understood China is getting more and more to a threat on the eastern borders and we have to counter it. That reduces forces in the west, which alone wouldn't be an issue, but if you also have internal problems in replacing older fighters, your numbers of course will fall short. To make it even worse, PAF is doing a good job with it's modernising pace, by replacing older fighters with JF 17 in good numbers. That brings the numbers of capable fighters way closer to those of IAF too and as shown above, even ahead on the lower end.
However, this shortfall was calculated by IAF/MoD and they compromised on less numbers to counter PAF, for increased capability to counter PLAAF and increased improvements for the indigenous industry. That's why they went from MRCA (fast fighter replacement) to MMRCA (higher capability, more industrial long term benefits) and when we see the already started developments for FGFA, MRTA, AMCA and AURA, it makes clear that they are looking ahead with a mid to long term strategy to get an edge again.

Personally I do think they made the right decision for the future and to counter PLAAF, but still should have acted faster for the current fleet modernisation. At least half of the Super 30s could be produced by Russia, instead of adding them all to HALs production line and make them till 2017. Also we should procure more than just 1 x Rafale squad directly from France, both would increase the replacement and modernisation pace and would counter the shrinking sqaudron numbers.
Similarly, IAF/MoD should have reacted faster to the delays of DRDO AWACS development and procured more A50 Phalcons earlier, to deploy reasonable numbers to both borderlines and offer propper AWACS coverage. Imo this is the biggest problem for IAF and tactically a way bigger issue than the low squadron numbers.

 

[Dazzler]

Yes the PHALCON is by far one of the best if not the best AWACs currently operated anywhere. It offers 360 degree detection with a 500-600km detection range. The Erieye is relatively older tech and offers 270 degree detection with a detection range of 400-450 KMs. Can't comment on DRDO AWACS vs ZDK-03 but I'd dare say DRDO AWACS was superior as it is later tech and has help from some of the leading radar experts in the world whilst the ZDK is a rip off of older tech.



And between Rafale and FC-20 there is little comparison the Rafale scores higher in all key parameters including weapons package, radar, EW suite, data fusion, low observabilty etc etc. it is the flawed belief that systems like FC-20 are superior to say the Rafale that are borne out of pride whilst my statemtn is based on verifiable FACTS.
And I never said that the IAF IL-78MKI was superior to the PAF IL-78MK that would make no sense. But the IAF is getting more advanced AARs such as A330 MRTT, FYI.

Unless you know each parameter of FC-20 which even most Chinese and Pakistanis (including me) are not aware off, this claim sounds a little premature. Just one thing, FC-20 is the test bed for avionics, weapons and radar for J-20 (5th Gen).

Rafale is good but has been rejected by UAE, Singapore on grounds of less innovation and huge cost. It will not bring something drastic to the region as was the case with MKI when IAF inducted it.

 

[Vritra]

Phalcon is definitely among the best out there but how can you say it is better then Erieye which is being used by 5-6 nations worldwide?

Being used by 5-6 nations isn't much of an endorsement, when you consider the surroundings of said nations. Those nations usually operate in areas of low air threat levels, where they don't really have to contest with a powerful hostile air force. The only two exceptions are Thailand and Pakistan. With Thailand, the limited coverage isn't much of an issue, given the small area they have to keep a watch over. There are very few directions a credible threat can engage them from. With Pakistan, the threat of the Indian Air Force necessitated the acquisition of a system with greater reach, C3 capacity, and coverage, the ZDK-03. If the Erieye was adequate, and simply not an interim solution, the ZDK-03 buy is invalid.

Oh, and I suppose if you want, you can count Saudi Arabia as a nation which operates in a credible threat environment, namely Iran. Which is an Air Force that plays the numbers game more than technological superiority.

 

[sancho]

another claim without evidence, can you prove it? Phalcon is definitely among the best out there but how can you say it is better then Erieye which is being used by 5-6 nations worldwide?

Because it offers more radar detection range, has features like satcom, sigint..., because it can carry more crew and equipment, has more endurance with a 2nd crew and mid air refuelling...
The Saab 2000s Eriyes is a cost-effective AWACS, that's why several smaller countries bought it instead of more capable bigger versions E-3, other Phalcon versions or now the 737 Wedgetail, so numbers of operaters is not an argument for capability!

When you compare techs of the radar systems itself and of the platform, the A50 Phalcon is more capable to ZDK, while the EMB 145 DRDO AWACS is to Saab 2000 Erieye (Erieye is the better radar system, but the DRDO AWACS has the better plattform and offers more features again).

It will not bring something drastic to the region as was the case with MKI when IAF inducted it.

SPECTRA EWS jamming, passive detection, targeting and weapon cueing capabilities
SC capability
one of the lowest RCS
Meteor missile
AASM

Just to name some game changers.

 

[IND151]

Whatever... this might help speeding up IAF modernization. After army chief letter the tank ammo was purchased and recently M777 as well.

But PAF 26 sqn Vs IAF 31 sqn would imbalance the force.We need 50 sqn at least.

if you are referring to Konkurus ATGM purchase then according to some sources that deal was signed in 2008/2010 but has been revealed now

 

[Dazzler]

Being used by 5-6 nations isn't much of an endorsement, when you consider the surroundings of said nations. Those nations usually operate in areas of low air threat levels, where they don't really have to contest with a powerful hostile air force. The only two exceptions are Thailand and Pakistan. With Thailand, the limited coverage isn't much of an issue, given the small area they have to keep a watch over. There are very few directions a credible threat can engage them from. With Pakistan, the threat of the Indian Air Force necessitated the acquisition of a system with greater reach, C3 capacity, and coverage, the ZDK-03. If the Erieye was adequate, and simply not an interim solution, the ZDK-03 buy is invalid.

Oh, and I suppose if you want, you can count Saudi Arabia as a nation which operates in a credible threat environment, namely Iran. Which is an Air Force that plays the numbers game more than technological superiority.

Without confirmation, ZDK has been praised by PAF personnel in terms of range and radar capability and call it a subset of KJ-2000 radar. It still is a mystery system for the most part so i refrain to compare or make any outrageous claims with Erieye or Phalcon, something which a few people openly do in this thread.

 

[IND151]

Let me give u a little piece of advice: Never Underestimate Your Enemy. Peace!

we don't underestimate our enemy

ON TOPIC> our Sq numbers are declining as old jets are being phased out

with induction of Tejas,SU 30 MKI( more are coming),Rafale,Mig 29 K IAF will be much more stronger

and not to forget FGFA, P8I,LCH

so after all these inductions ( despite modernization of PAF ) IAF will be overwhelmingly superior to PAF

 

[Dazzler]

we don't underestimate our enemy

ON TOPIC> our Sq numbers are declining as old jets are being phased out

with induction of Tejas,SU 30 MKI( more are coming),Rafale,Mig 29 K IAF will be much more stronger

and not to forget FGFA, P8I,LCH

so after all these inductions ( despite modernization of PAF ) IAF will be overwhelmingly superior to PAF

Friend,

no doubt IAF will be much stronger after the said inductions but these inductions will take at least 10-12 years. in the mean time, PAF will not be sitting idly neither it is today. Chinese version of F-35 (aka FC-2) is likely to fly in December or Jan 2013,aimed at PAF and export market, it will fulfill the high end (5th Gen) role in PAF, above the FC-20 and jf-17 blk 3 onwards, and is likely to confront the FGFA in foreseeable future.


FC-2 aka J-21 by Huitong....

http://cnair.top81.cn/J-20_J-21.htm

 

[IND151]

Friend,

no doubt IAF will be much stronger after the said inductions but these inductions will take at least 10-12 years. in the mean time, PAF will not be sitting idly neither it is today. Chinese version of F-35 (aka FC-2) is likely to fly in December or Jan 2013,aimed at PAF and export market, it will fulfill the high end (5th Gen) role in PAF, above the FC-20 and jf-17 blk 3 onwards, and is likely to confront the FGFA in foreseeable future.

i used following sentence

so after all these inductions ( despite modernization of PAF ) IAF will be overwhelmingly superior to PAF

PAF will not be idle, but they cant induct as much jets as IAF due to combination of several factors

that's why PAF doctrine is denying air superiority

 

[The Great One]

Without confirmation, ZDK has been praised by PAF personnel in terms of range and radar capability and call it a subset of KJ-2000 radar. It still is a mystery system for the most part so i refrain to compare or make any outrageous claims with Erieye or Phalcon, something which a few people openly do in this thread.

And that proves what exactly.
As regard to your argument of J10B being a testbed to technologies of their fifth gen aircraft.
That too proves nothing. Rafale has shown to have all the technologies that even F-22 possess minus VLO. J10 or Chinese MIC is yet to show a single such technology such as sensor fusion, passive sensors, AESA[on fighter jets] etc save for the 2 prototypes of a supposedly VLO jet so that argument doesn't stand either.
Nowadays it has almost become a trend to start by claiming that FC-20 is a counter to MMRCA. When pointed out that Rafa is better, they hit back with 'we are not aware of it's[FC-20] tech and so they mustn't be compared'. And this negative proof concept is also extended to JF-17 Blk-II and J-20 as well.

 

[Dazzler]

i used following sentence

so after all these inductions ( despite modernization of PAF ) IAF will be overwhelmingly superior to PAF

PAF will not be idle, but they cant induct as much jets as IAF due to combination of several factors

that's why PAF doctrine is denying air superiority

Numbers never was and never will be PAF's game due to economy, agreed. PAF doctrine is no longer what you mentioned otherwise they would have never gone for AARs in the first place.

And that proves what exactly.
As regard to your argument of J10B being a testbed to technologies of their fifth gen aircraft.
That too proves nothing. Rafale has shown to have all the technologies that even F-22 possess minus VLO. J10 or Chinese MIC is yet to show a single such technology such as sensor fusion, passive sensors, AESA[on fighter jets] etc save for the 2 prototypes of a supposedly VLO jet so that argument doesn't stand either.
Nowadays it has almost become a trend to start by claiming that FC-20 is a counter to MMRCA. When pointed out that Rafa is better, they hit back with 'we are not aware of it's tech and so they mustn't be compared'. And this negative proof concept is also extended to JF-17 Blk-II and J-20 as well.

Being a test bed for technologies that are meant for a stealth fighter proves nothing to you perhaps but anyone will attain interest in such an aircraft which is wrapped up in an advanced 4 gen airframe and possess 5 gen avionics/ subsystems under the curtain. Sensor Fusion is already present in J-10, FBC-1, jf-17, J-15, and off course J-20.

 

[Vritra]

Without confirmation, ZDK has been praised by PAF personnel in terms of range and radar capability and call it a subset of KJ-2000 radar.

By that, would it be safe to assume they find it superior to the Erieye?

It still is a mystery system for the most part so i refrain to compare or make any outrageous claims with Erieye or Phalcon, something which a few people openly do in this thread.

Educated guesses are often not far off the mark, as long as they're not "arguments" like "PhAlCoN RuLeZeZ, ZdK SuX0Rz". The Chinese examined the Phalcon system, before the Israelis succumbed to Western pressure and refused to export. The Chinese also have limited experience with the Mainstay platform. And following this, they developed the ZDK-03/KJ-2000 system.

By the few snippets of info released, the ZDK-03 has a clustered antenna like the Mainstay, rather than a Phalcon/Sentry-type Rotodome. Given their examination of the Phalcon's capability, the Chinese undoubtedly tried to match, if not exceed, its performance, so one can assume that it would present similar performance. Now, factor in this being China's first attempt at an airborne early warning system, and the more technologically antiquated radar arrangement. In light of this, it is unlikely that the ZDK-03 surpasses the Phalcon, and it would be a stretch to imagine it can match the Phalcon's performance. Given the secrecy of the PLA, I suppose we can do nothing but wait till someone gets their hands on hard, cold facts to prove this wrong.

BTW: That thing about outrageous claims, it works both ways. There's nothing to suggest that the ZDK-03 is rubbish, but nothing proves that its better than the systems the Indians use.

 

[The Great One]

Being a test bed for technologies that are meant for a stealth fighter proves nothing to you perhaps but anyone will attain interest in such an aircraft which is wrapped up in an advanced 4 gen airframe and possess 5 gen avionics/ subsystems under the curtain. Sensor Fusion is already present in J-10, FBC-1, jf-17, J-15, and off course J-20.

Oh really.
Yes, we are all interested in what 5th gen technologies your FC-20 ultimately proves to have, but at the moment, Chinese industries are nowhere [don't ask for source] close to developing the kind of things such as ALR-94, FSO, SPECTRA etc.
BTW JF-17, J-10 have sensor fusion. That's news to me. And even if they did. What sensors do they have anyway.
BTW by sensor fusion, one means something like this.

Courtesy Drsomnath999