Pakistan Air Force To Gain Superiority Over Indian Air Force

[SQ8]

kaha ke idiot hein ye????

you were not in this world when that happen, but google is there, search for it. There is something called MANPAD, which is cost less and Pakistan got many of them from China. Our fighters were freely bombing infiltrator hideouts in Kargil under intense fire from Pakistan. By one in a million chance, one fighter got a hit. lol

This is your first lesson, kiddo.

It was not down to chance.. IAF pilots were under strict orders not to cross the LOC and there are multiple accounts of them executing strikes in a precise fashion so that they could pull up just before the LOC. Many pilots from the TACDE were at the front of this effort.
Also , these "infiltrators" had NO MANPADS(they only had RPG's which may have been mistaken for MANPADS) with them.. the MANPADS were with the "regular" units across the LOC .
Whenever an IAF pilot made the mistake of crossing the LOC..they found themselves under fire from fixed AAA and MANPADS andpaid for it. The nature of the battlefield greatly increased the chance of success for PA MANPAD teams as the IAF pilots had to fly "low" over the terrain to execute their strikes successfully(only the M2K's could pound their targets with impunity from altitude with LGB).

 

[JonAsad]

Exactly how PAF will gain superiority?-

 

[Abingdonboy]

Ummm okay. Because 1 MKI is not more potent than anything in the PAF's arsenal same with the MMRCA, same with the PAK-FA/FGFA. The LCA is also a pretty advanced fighter and IMHO has a clear edge on the JF-17 and could tang with the F-16 for sure not to mention the UPGs to the Mig-29 and M2K mean these platforms could also counter anything the PAF currently has in their possession. Addtionally the IAF has assets such as the PHALCON AWACs, dedicated IAF sattilete, a fully networked C4I system and more that the PAF doesn't. It is illogical by any of these fools to think the PAF and IAF equilibrium would ever change given current budgets, economic health and doctrine. Whilst on paper or may look as though the PAF has supremacy for 2 years or whatever (whilst I don't agree) beyond that and beyond say 2017 no one in the region will match the capabilities of the IAF.



I can't see an Indo-Pak war in the next 2 years anyway so why fuss??

 

[The Great One]

Because 1 MKI is not more potent than anything in the PAF's arsenal same with the MMRCA, same with the PAK-FA/FGFA

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ty-over-indian-air-force-5.html#ixzz1vmLvVdTU

Please tell me that that^ was an attempt at sarcasm.

 

[tvsram1992]

Please tell me that that^ was an attempt at sarcasm.

He made its reverse no aircraft in PAF inventory is as potent as mki , rafale and PAKFA .

 

[MiG-21]

It was not down to chance.. IAF pilots were under strict orders not to cross the LOC and there are multiple accounts of them executing strikes in a precise fashion so that they could pull up just before the LOC. Many pilots from the TACDE were at the front of this effort.
Also , these "infiltrators" had NO MANPADS(they only had RPG's which may have been mistaken for MANPADS) with them.. the MANPADS were with the "regular" units across the LOC .

Actually a MiG-21 was shot down by a MPADS from Militants, not regulars.
Also a heli was shot down too, but no idea who fired it.
A MiG-27 flamed out & crashed due to engine failure, no MPADS.

IAF did cross the LoC from time to time. Especially the ones bombing from Jaguars & MiG-27, which are less manuverable, and given the high speed bombing runs being conducted they would go 2-3 km on the other side of the LoC.

MPADS sounds better. Man-PADS sounds like a sanitary napkin for men.

 

[arp2041]

MPADS sounds better. Man-PADS sounds like a sanitary napkin for men.

nice one bro

 

[Dazzler]

Ummm okay. Because 1 MKI is not more potent than anything in the PAF's arsenal same with the MMRCA, same with the PAK-FA/FGFA. The LCA is also a pretty advanced fighter and IMHO has a clear edge on the JF-17 and could tang with the F-16 for sure not to mention the UPGs to the Mig-29 and M2K mean these platforms could also counter anything the PAF currently has in their possession. Addtionally the IAF has assets such as the PHALCON AWACs, dedicated IAF sattilete, a fully networked C4I system and more that the PAF doesn't. It is illogical by any of these fools to think the PAF and IAF equilibrium would ever change given current budgets, economic health and doctrine. Whilst on paper or may look as though the PAF has supremacy for 2 years or whatever (whilst I don't agree) beyond that and beyond say 2017 no one in the region will match the capabilities of the IAF.



I can't see an Indo-Pak war in the next 2 years anyway so why fuss??

plenty of claims with no substancial evidence to back up. on a gven day, any fighter can take on any adversary provided it had favorable terms but IAF is at a disadvantageous position and will remain so till lca and mrca step in.

 

[The Great One]

plenty of claims with no substancial evidence to back up. on a gven day, any fighter can take on any adversary provided it had favorable terms but IAF is at a disadvantageous position and will remain so till lca and mrca step in.

Rather. IAF has been at an advantageous position from the get-go after induction of flankers. It alone outnumbers all the F-16's anf JF-17's in the box with some significant qualitative advantage.

 

[sancho]

The comparison i made was on what the IAF and PAF has as of today, not what they might or might not have tomorrow. Israeli jammers that you have mentioned are utility jammers i.e., they can be used on multiple accounts but what PAF operates are heavy duty jammers. ALQ-131 and ALQ 211... Both are excellent options in an electronic warfare environment but high powered jammers have more juice to deliver under dense environment which, ELTA 8251 qualifies for, but that is not with IAF as of today. Bottom line is that a multi spectral EW environment will need heavy duty jammers.

That's not correct, the ALQ 211 is just an internal self protection jammer as the Israeli system we have integrated into MKIs or other Indian fighters and since you only got export versions, you can't compare it with the once on US F16s. Same goes for the ALQ 131, which is just a low/mid end jammer and not a high end system like the US uses on Prowlers or Growlers and we know that IAF has several external jammers from Israel as well.
So that's more wishfull thinking to believe the US export EW systems for F16 would be more capable than the Israeli we already have, let alone those we get from France, through Mirage upgrade and Rafale procurement (MKI upgrade is not clear on this field, that's why I leave it out so far).

Btw, several mistakes on IAF fleet age!

Mirage and Mig 29s are hardly 26 years old, some of the Jags only 4 years and MKIs came in the early 2000s, the SU30Ks were indicted in the late 90s and sold back and replaced with new MKIs in 2003, so the oldest MKIs we have are close to 10 years, which is the reason why they now get their first main upgrade.

 

[Dazzler]

Rather. IAF has been at an advantageous position from the get-go after induction of flankers. It alone outnumbers all the F-16's anf JF-17's in the box with some significant qualitative advantage.

IAF WAS at an advantage when they got MKI along with BARS and R-77, that happened back in late 90s, they are not at an advantage today when PAF has BVR (sd-10a, Aim-120C5), C4I (indigenous made also exported to BD), AWACS (2 types) and AARs (same as India) among others. There is not much difference in terms of capability between the two as compared to where PAF was in 90s and even as late as 2006.

 

[Dazzler]

That's not correct, the ALQ 211 is just an internal self protection jammer as the Israeli system we have integrated into MKIs or other Indian fighters and since you only got export versions, you can't compare it with the once on US F16s. Same goes for the ALQ 131, which is just a low/mid end jammer and not a high end system like the US uses on Prowlers or Growlers and we know that IAF has several external jammers from Israel as well.
So that's more wishfull thinking to believe the US export EW systems for F16 would be more capable than the Israeli we already have, let alone those we get from France, through Mirage upgrade and Rafale procurement (MKI upgrade is not clear on this field, that's why I leave it out so far).

Btw, several mistakes on IAF fleet age!

Mirage and Mig 29s are hardly 26 years old, some of the Jags only 4 years and MKIs came in the early 2000s, the SU30Ks were indicted in the late 90s and sold back and replaced with new MKIs in 2003, so the oldest MKIs we have are close to 10 years, which is the reason why they now get their first main upgrade.

They are both configured a high power jamming pods to be utilized under dense EW environment. ALQ-99 is a different story altogether because it is strictly a US NAvy asset, designed for the sole purpose to penetrate dense EW environments. India also got export versions of 8222 from Israel, not the ones Israel itself uses.

http://www.cenrex.com/dokumenty/ALQ-211.pdf

ITT AN/ALQ-211 - Scramble

AN/ALQ-131 Self Protection Jammer Pod

ITT AN/ALQ-211 - Scramble

one more informative source...

http://www.exelisinc.com/solutions/AIDEWS/Documents/ITT-Exelis-AIDEWS-Brochure.pdf

 

[Abingdonboy]

IAF WAS at an advantage when they got MKI along with BARS and R-77, that happened back in late 90s, they are not at an advantage today when PAF has BVR (sd-10a, Aim-120C5), C4I (indigenous made also exported to BD), AWACS (2 types) and AARs (same as India) among others. There is not much difference in terms of capability between the two as compared to where PAF was in 90s and even as late as 2006.

There's actually quite a significant difference because not only does the IAF operate more of the comparable platforms (4.5 gen fighters, AARs, AWACS) they also more potent such platforms. Ie the IAI PHALCON is far superior to the PAF AWACS in capability and so most likely will the DRDO CABS AWACS (yes this is speculation granted regarding DRDO AWACS). There may be there little difference in the range of capabilities between the IAF and PAF but in terms of actual capabilities it is clear who has the edge and will do so in the future and will pull out an ever increasing edge.



But I am unsure as to why you are continuing in trying to put foreward your claim the PAF is equal to the IAF. They are not, this is a fact but this is not a poor reflection on the PAF it is pure economics and common sense. You wouldn't compare India to Belgium in defence sector (Belguim has a similar side defence budget to Pakistan) So why should anyone be comparing Pakistan to India just because they happen to be neighbours? It is extremely unfair to the PAF as they are at an inherent disadvantage. The PAF will continue to have a purely defensive doctrine wherin they exercise minimum credible detterance to the IAF, beyond that they are pretty powerless.

 

[Dazzler]

There's actually quite a significant difference because not only does the IAF operate more of the comparable platforms (4.5 gen fighters, AARs, AWACS) they also more potent such platforms. Ie the IAI PHALCON is far superior to the PAF AWACS in capability and so most likely will the DRDO CABS AWACS (yes this is speculation granted regarding DRDO AWACS). There may be there little difference in the range of capabilities between the IAF and PAF but in terms of actual capabilities it is clear who has the edge and will do so in the future and will pull out an ever increasing edge.



But I am unsure as to why you are continuing in trying to put foreward your claim the PAF is equal to the IAF. They are not, this is a fact but this is not a poor reflection on the PAF it is pure economics and common sense. You wouldn't compare India to Belgium in defence sector (Belguim has a similar side defence budget to Pakistan) So why should anyone be comparing Pakistan to India just because they happen to be neighbours? It is extremely unfair to the PAF as they are at an inherent disadvantage. The PAF will continue to have a purely defensive doctrine wherin they exercise minimum credible detterance to the IAF, beyond that they are pretty powerless.

I have no intention of creating a mess but i dont understand why you folks feel so uncomfortable on what is evidently noticeable as a fact? IAF AAR is same as PAF AAR but your's is superior because IAF has it? Funny.

PHALCON is superior to Erieye? and DRDO AWACS is superior to ZDK-03 for no apparent reason. This is an attitude which leads to false pride nothing more. The FACT is that the gap that once existed between two forces has been reducing sinc 2007 and continues to do so. PAF lacked even a modern fighter, radar and BVR, not to mention an adequate SAM coverage and EW equipment which are mostly covered today. The significant thing that will increase the gap is not the Rafale, to be countered by FC-20, but the FGFA! In the mean time, let us be realistic.

 

[SP!TF!R3]

PHALCON is superior to Erieye? and DRDO AWACS is superior to ZDK-03 for no apparent reason. This is an attitude which leads to false pride nothing more. The FACT is that the gap that once existed between two forces has been reducing sinc 2007 and continues to do so. PAF lacked even a modern fighter, radar and BVR, not to mention an adequate SAM coverage and EW equipment which are mostly covered today. The significant thing that will increase the gap is not the Rafale, to be countered by FC-20, but the FGFA! In the mean time, let us be realistic.

Phalcon is one of the best AWACS of the world...so don't compare it with erieye..