Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[khanasifm]

~$2M a piece


https://www.janes.com/article/93354/germany-boosts-meteor-bvraam-inventory

 

[PakFactor]

Courtesy ACE of PAF's facebook page:

"Why Pakistan flies F-16 on border patrols also known as CAP or combat air patrols?

Because F-16 are equipped with AIM-120 AMRAAM.

Little known to general public , there are two criteria for major overhaul of an air to air missiles.

Shelf life when the missile is not mounted on a fighter jet and in storage. Missiles can have many years of shelf life before needing a major overhaul.

Captive flying hours. Or the amount of time a missile flies while attached to a fighter jets.
This is the real problem.

Since an air to air missile experiences violent vibrations, extreme temperature changes and other forms of stress while flying mounted on a fighter jet. It needs a major overhaul after certain number of flying hours and an accurate record is kept for each missile.

For AMRAAM AIM-120 the reported Captive flying hours were 895 as of 1990.

Since then the later versions have been improved and the version Pakistan uses AIM-120C had 1500 captive flying hours endurance before overhaul.

In comparison a French Meteor missile (used on Rafale) needs a motor change every 500 flying hours and a complete overhaul every 1000 flying hours.

The SD-10 air to air missile used by JF-17 Thunder is far more accurate and has a much higher kill probability than AIM-120 , but has a very low endurance for captive flying hours. The missile needs to be taken apart and thoroughly checked after every 100 flying hours , which is far lower than the 1500 hours of AIM-120C.

For this reason F-16 with AIM-120 patrol Pakistani skies on combat patrols, and JF-17 with SD-10 are only sent in at critical occasions where actual combat is imminent.

This configuration is cost effective."

If that is true about SD-10 overhaul time frame that’s sad — waste of time and man power. I would’ve thought it’ll be much better than that.

Also, compared to AMRAAM the SD isn’t battle tested how can we know it’s accurate and survive a high EW environment?

 

[fatman17]

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

The SD-10 air to air missile used by JF-17 Thunder is far more accurate and has a much higher kill probability than AIM-120

But how? Ita not even tested in Battles?
If u are assuming it by testing in Military practices, then how it compares with PL 15?

The missile needs to be taken apart and thoroughly checked after every 100 flying hours , which is far lower than the 1500 hours of AIM-120C.

What about PL 15?

For this reason F-16 with AIM-120 patrol Pakistani skies on combat patrols, and JF-17 with SD-10 are only sent in at critical occasions where actual combat is imminent.

Sorry but F16s can carry 6 AMRAAMS compared to just 2 SD 10s by JF17s (as seen in pictures). AIM 120C5s have higher ranges then SD 10s. AMRAAMS are battle proven whereas SD 10s are not. F16s have better EW capabilities, better radars and better Fuel Capacities then JF 17s (uptill now).

 

[PakFactor]

But how? Ita not even tested in Battles?
If u are assuming it by testing in Military practices, then how it compares with PL 15?


What about PL 15?


Sorry but F16s can carry 6 AMRAAMS compared to just 2 SD 10s by JF17s (as seen in pictures). AIM 120C5s have higher ranges then SD 10s. AMRAAMS are battle proven whereas SD 10s are not. F16s have better EW capabilities, better radars and better Fuel Capacities then JF 17s (uptill now).

On top of that AMRAAMS probably have a better probability to survive a EW Spoofing etc environment considering its battle tested and our load out is small that’s another concern I have always had.

 

[khanasifm]

If that is true about SD-10 overhaul time frame that’s sad — waste of time and man power. I would’ve thought it’ll be much better than that.

Also, compared to AMRAAM the SD isn’t battle tested how can we know it’s accurate and survive a high EW environment?

comments

1 aim-120 was tested for xx hours and Then with passage of time flight hours it’s life schedule defined enhanced it was not out of the box it got where it is today

2 sd-10 is far cheaper so who cares if 1500 bs 200 hours as long as they have per hour cost comparison which will go down with passage of time

3 No need to compare US system with Chinese US is decade ahead of Europe or rest of the world

4 paf is still a third world airforce do not compare it with west and pak is still a third world country where majority of population is uneducated

5 compare prep wrt to major threat or opponents as long as paf is able to defend against it, its fine no need to compare to usaf or other modern af with advance capabilities, resources and materials available

Cheer

 

[PakFactor]

Two comments

1 aim-120 was tested for xx hours and Then with passage of time flight hours it’s life schedule defined enhanced it was not out of the box it got where it is today

2 sd-10 is far cheaper so who cares if 1500 bs 200 hours as long as they have per hour cost comparison which will go down with passage of time

3 No need to compare US system with Chinese US is decade aged of Europe or ready of the world

4 paf is still a third world airforce do not compare it with west and pak is still a third world country where majority of population is uneducated

5 compare prep wrt to major threat or opponents as long as paf is able to defend against it, its fine no need to compare to usaf or other modern af with advance capabilities, resources and materials available

Cheer

That’s not a good way to look at things — yes we should be looking to compete against west as well because our enemy will not stay Ganguland forever. If we can not give our boys the proper equipment that will be doing them a disservice and could imperial the security of our nation.

It’s a stupid mentality to keep for any nation be it rich or poor.

Along with this minimum deterrence crap our officers keep spewing needs to be gone completely because a defensive force never wins and they’ve never won a god damn war. Either focus on offensive capabilities or wither away under an assault.

 

[Vortex]

That’s not a good way to look at things — yes we should be looking to compete against west as well because our enemy will not stay Ganguland forever. If we can not give our boys the proper equipment that will be doing them a disservice and could imperial the security of our nation.

It’s a stupid mentality to keep for any nation be it rich or poor.

Along with this minimum deterrence crap our officers keep spewing needs to be gone completely because a defensive force never wins and they’ve never won a god damn war. Either focus on offensive capabilities or wither away under an assault.

Agreed with both of you and @khanasifm but we are at the beginning of our defence industry, etc and we have to work with what we can get. What was the captive flight time for the first version of the AIM120 ?

 

[StormBreaker]

Courtesy ACE of PAF's facebook page:

"Why Pakistan flies F-16 on border patrols also known as CAP or combat air patrols?

Because F-16 are equipped with AIM-120 AMRAAM.

Little known to general public , there are two criteria for major overhaul of an air to air missiles.

Shelf life when the missile is not mounted on a fighter jet and in storage. Missiles can have many years of shelf life before needing a major overhaul.

Captive flying hours. Or the amount of time a missile flies while attached to a fighter jets.
This is the real problem.

Since an air to air missile experiences violent vibrations, extreme temperature changes and other forms of stress while flying mounted on a fighter jet. It needs a major overhaul after certain number of flying hours and an accurate record is kept for each missile.

For AMRAAM AIM-120 the reported Captive flying hours were 895 as of 1990.

Since then the later versions have been improved and the version Pakistan uses AIM-120C had 1500 captive flying hours endurance before overhaul.

In comparison a French Meteor missile (used on Rafale) needs a motor change every 500 flying hours and a complete overhaul every 1000 flying hours.

The SD-10 air to air missile used by JF-17 Thunder is far more accurate and has a much higher kill probability than AIM-120 , but has a very low endurance for captive flying hours. The missile needs to be taken apart and thoroughly checked after every 100 flying hours , which is far lower than the 1500 hours of AIM-120C.

For this reason F-16 with AIM-120 patrol Pakistani skies on combat patrols, and JF-17 with SD-10 are only sent in at critical occasions where actual combat is imminent.

This configuration is cost effective."

A beautiful and highly informative read.

My questions :

- What are the Hardware/Physical elements that judges CPF and affects it ?

- CPF of PL-15, are they known yet ?

- Why SD-10 is considered better than AIM-120 (not taking CPF into consideration) and is it inferior to AIM-120D in terms of accuracy?

@MastanKhan @HRK @Signalian

 

[Ali_Baba]

After the Feb 27 2019 incident, the IAF went out and purchased close to 800 R77s and the like. This was mostly likely down to the IAF exhausting the captive flying hours and total lifespan of those missiles and needed replenishment of their stocks on an asap basis.

USA way ahead, that is why so many people want the American stuff and why PAF will always want American gear. It operates very well, are very thoroughly tested, in many cases combat proven and they tend to have long shelf lives, and product usage lifespans to boot. What ever you think of America itself, their military equipment is second to none. Even Europe is quite behind in comparison as proven with the Meteor captive flying hours as shown above !!!!

 

[DrWatson775]

But how? Ita not even tested in Battles?
Sorry but F16s can carry 6 AMRAAMS compared to just 2 SD 10s by JF17s (as seen in pictures). AIM 120C5s have higher ranges then SD 10s. AMRAAMS are battle proven whereas SD 10s are not. F16s have better EW capabilities, better radars and better Fuel Capacities then JF 17s (uptill now).

Reportedly SD10 is very jamming resistant, is more lethal and has more range than 120 charlie (but 120 D is better).

 

[air marshal]

 

[ziaulislam]

But how? Ita not even tested in Battles?
If u are assuming it by testing in Military practices, then how it compares with PL 15?


What about PL 15?


Sorry but F16s can carry 6 AMRAAMS compared to just 2 SD 10s by JF17s (as seen in pictures). AIM 120C5s have higher ranges then SD 10s. AMRAAMS are battle proven whereas SD 10s are not. F16s have better EW capabilities, better radars and better Fuel Capacities then JF 17s (uptill now).

Actually standarad is 4 aim 120 with two fuel tanks for f16

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Actually standarad is 4 aim 120 with two fuel tanks for f16

Yes but it can carry 6 AMRAAMS

 

[ziaulislam]

Yes but it can carry 6 AMRAAMS

Well jf17 can carry four as well in dual racks. Or if you sacrifice fuel 4 on regular pylons