Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[denel]

as other members wrote already what's stopping Pakistan from joint ventures and deeper military cooperation with South Africa?

Corruption and self interest on Pak side. This is exactly what scuttled the deal with Turkey when we were trying to sell Rooivalk helos back in 90's. Their high command was under pressure of EU/US not to deal under pretext of carrots to join EU etc. Think of it this way - you need gunships - we have the know how, design and complete production can be done - but not once we were approached.

Corruption and self interest on Pak side. This is exactly what scuttled the deal with Turkey when we were trying to sell Rooivalk helos back in 90's. Their high command was under pressure of EU/US not to deal under pretext of carrots to join EU etc. Think of it this way - you need gunships - we have the know how, design and complete production can be done - but not once we were approached.

You need mine proof vehicles - all countries have come to us for TOT including Americans after they got eaten up in Iraq; but did Pak ever consider coming to even discuss how best to come up with a low cost solution - we always believe there is a solution for every client - NOTHING.
Sorry i am not sounding like sour grapes but just frustrated at the morons you have at the leadership in Pak.

 

[TsAr]

Absolutely, we are desperately looking for markets right now as long as there is money, it can be done. With the exception of land weapons where we have a good market share, there is already breakthru on AAMs front; things had slowed under prior Brazilian govt; with the president things are beginning to move to get AAMs jvs to final stages.


There was no stumbling block on our side; the issue was on Pak side. Remember - we have a difference - our military chiefs have ZERO power on deals. Pak team signs documents and promises but never shows up; then what has been passed along is they have vested interests with Chinese/US/European sellers who give massive kickbacks and hence nothing transpires. Regretfully until that mentality changes, there will be nothing of major significant going over to Pak @MastanKhan

So kicks backs is the only reason? So should I assume that south African defense companies are against kick backs which are prevalent in the defense industry? (I am not in favor of kickbacks, just trying to get a better understanding)

 

[Inception-06]

Corruption and self interest on Pak side. This is exactly what scuttled the deal with Turkey when we were trying to sell Rooivalk helos back in 90's. Their high command was under pressure of EU/US not to deal under pretext of carrots to join EU etc. Think of it this way - you need gunships - we have the know how, design and complete production can be done - but not once we were approached.


You need mine proof vehicles - all countries have come to us for TOT including Americans after they got eaten up in Iraq; but did Pak ever consider coming to even discuss how best to come up with a low cost solution - we always believe there is a solution for every client - NOTHING.
Sorry i am not sounding like sour grapes but just frustrated at the morons you have at the leadership in Pak.

If that's true, then its shame and it hurts!

 

[denel]

So kicks backs is the only reason? So should I assume that south African defense companies are against kick backs which are prevalent in the defense industry? (I am not in favor of kickbacks, just trying to get a better understanding)

They will avoid it as much as possible; it is some people have bigger bags they can give. For example - when we were trying to negotiate with India on howitzers - they demanded 25% kickbacks; then govt changed, the next set of officials wanted another 25% because their palms had not been greased; we refused and got black listed for kickbacks.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Corruption and self interest on Pak side. This is exactly what scuttled the deal with Turkey when we were trying to sell Rooivalk helos back in 90's. Their high command was under pressure of EU/US not to deal under pretext of carrots to join EU etc. Think of it this way - you need gunships - we have the know how, design and complete production can be done - but not once we were approached.


You need mine proof vehicles - all countries have come to us for TOT including Americans after they got eaten up in Iraq; but did Pak ever consider coming to even discuss how best to come up with a low cost solution - we always believe there is a solution for every client - NOTHING.
Sorry i am not sounding like sour grapes but just frustrated at the morons you have at the leadership in Pak.

Indeed. It might not be fancy, but the Rooivalk/Puma combination was definitely worth exploring. Two rugged and proven platforms, albeit with one major choking point -- Safran Group. However, that's where re-adapting comes into play, e.g., working with Ukraine's Motor Sich for an alternative turboshaft, or perhaps promising Airbus and Safran new Puma orders in tandem with the Rooivalk.

 

[denel]

Indeed. It might not be fancy, but the Rooivalk/Puma combination was definitely worth exploring. Two rugged and proven platforms, albeit with one major choking point -- Safran Group. However, that's where re-adapting comes into play, e.g., working with Ukraine's Motor Sich for an alternative turboshaft, or perhaps promising Airbus and Safran new Puma orders in tandem with the Rooivalk.

Absolutely, that is the beauty, those platforms have complete flexibility to interchange.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

So kicks backs is the only reason? So should I assume that south African defense companies are against kick backs which are prevalent in the defense industry? (I am not in favor of kickbacks, just trying to get a better understanding)

To see South Africa (and Ukraine's) value, you need to be of the mindset of wanting to develop weapon systems first, even if you can get them from China or other sources. That's been Turkey's mindset as of late; they could've gotten AAMs, PGBs, etc from wherever, but they opted to make those in-house. Pakistan's mind-set is generally to import what's available and only take homegrown/JV routes when we can't access good equivalents.

So, as long as Pakistan can buy AAMs and SAMs from China (or Turkey in the coming years), it sadly will never collaborate with South Africa. However, in the 1990s, when no one was offering Pakistan PGMs, Pakistan opted to acquire tech for H-2, H-4, and Ra'ad from South Africa.

Unfortunately, this mindset of procurement runs against the 'vision' of a strong domestic defence industry -- for the latter, you need to prioritize in-house ahead of imports. But this is just another one of our conflicting beliefs, it joins the list of many others across our social, education, political, etc system.

PS: we could also work with South Africa on artillery, e.g., towed 155 mm howtizers, guns for a tracked howitzer, lightweight 105 mm howitzers, guided shells, etc.

 

[denel]

To see South Africa (and Ukraine's) value, you need to be of the mindset of wanting to develop weapon systems first, even if you can get them from China or other sources. That's been Turkey's mindset as of late; they could've gotten AAMs, PGBs, etc from wherever, but they opted to make those in-house. Pakistan's mind-set is generally to import what's available and only take homegrown/JV routes when we can't access good equivalents.

So, as long as Pakistan can buy AAMs and SAMs from China (or Turkey in the coming years), it sadly will never collaborate with South Africa. However, in the 1990s, when no one was offering Pakistan PGMs, Pakistan opted to acquire tech for H-2, H-4, and Ra'ad from South Africa.

Unfortunately, this mindset of procurement runs against the 'vision' of a strong domestic defence industry -- for the latter, you need to prioritize in-house ahead of imports. But this is just another one of our conflicting beliefs, it joins the list of many others across our social, education, political, etc system.

PS: we could also work with South Africa on artillery, e.g., towed 155 mm howtizers, guns for a tracked howitzer, lightweight 105 mm howitzers, guided shells, etc.

Absolutely, until that mindset is adopted; nothing will change.

 

[Khafee]

To see South Africa (and Ukraine's) value, you need to be of the mindset of wanting to develop weapon systems first, even if you can get them from China or other sources. That's been Turkey's mindset as of late; they could've gotten AAMs, PGBs, etc from wherever, but they opted to make those in-house. Pakistan's mind-set is generally to import what's available and only take homegrown/JV routes when we can't access good equivalents.

So, as long as Pakistan can buy AAMs and SAMs from China (or Turkey in the coming years), it sadly will never collaborate with South Africa. However, in the 1990s, when no one was offering Pakistan PGMs, Pakistan opted to acquire tech for H-2, H-4, and Ra'ad from South Africa.

Unfortunately, this mindset of procurement runs against the 'vision' of a strong domestic defence industry -- for the latter, you need to prioritize in-house ahead of imports. But this is just another one of our conflicting beliefs, it joins the list of many others across our social, education, political, etc system.

PS: we could also work with South Africa on artillery, e.g., towed 155 mm howtizers, guns for a tracked howitzer, lightweight 105 mm howitzers, guided shells, etc.

Sir, Ra'ad has ARAB genes, it did not come from south africa.

 

[Dual Wielder]

but did Pak ever consider coming to even discuss how best to come up with a low cost solution - we always believe there is a solution for every client - NOTHING.
Sorry i am not sounding like sour grapes but just frustrated at the morons you have at the leadership in Pak.

Unfortunately our leaders only come to power to enrich themselves, the country comes second e.g. the infamous 'Mr. 10%' but I think that's changing now, we're slowly moving in right direction due to the recent accountability drive.

 

[denel]

Unfortunately our leaders only come to power to enrich themselves, the country comes second e.g. the infamous 'Mr. 10%' but I think that's changing now, we're slowly moving in right direction due to the recent accountability drive.

we saw same entire decade under the curry muncher indian transplants Guptas and their hijack of Zuma and his croonies. Finally we are coming out of the shithole these indians dug this country and institutions under. If i had my way, we would put these Guptas where no light would even shine of their wretched swine family.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, Ra'ad has ARAB genes, it did not come from south africa.

Hi,

Surprise surprises---I was relaxing and you pulled another one---.

 

[fatman17]

General Xu Qiliang, Vice Chairman of Chinese Central Military Commission visited the Pakistan AF Commander, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan at AHQ Islamabad today. Bet that was an interesting meeting. https://t.co/kM4n09tw5k

 

[Maxpane]

General Xu Qiliang, Vice Chairman of Chinese Central Military Commission visited the Pakistan AF Commander, Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan at AHQ Islamabad today. Bet that was an interesting meeting. https://t.co/kM4n09tw5k
View attachment 576554

which missile model is on the table?

 

[fatman17]

which missile model is on the table?

The C or AK variety Anti Ship