Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[araz]

Let us imagine a worst case scenario for the PAF:
1. India buys more Rafales - numbers go up to 100
2. It upgrades comprehensively and comes up with a new game plan
3. PAF doesn't have the budget to follow suit, no new aircraft type can be inducted. Azm is 10 years away and block 3 is operationally 2 years away.
4. PAF will not only face a qualitative problem but a quantitative one, with retiring airframes of Mirages and F-7s

What could PAF do?

MIX IT UP: PAF could play the strategy of a variety bowler. It can introduce low cost BVR UCAVs and strike UCAVs. It can bring in LRSAMs into the mix. This could simply be Nasr-like missiles with multiple SD-10s carried within, or S-200 level local SAMs. The difference they would make would be that ingressing IAF aircraft would have to spend extra effort to dodge them or to release their strike loads.
Increase the number of threat axis for ingressing IAF aircraft.

MODERNIZE LEGACY AIRCRAFT: PAF can re-manufacture Mirages, comprehensively. With Block 2 and Block 1 JFT being upgraded, these Mirages could receive the radar and avionics package of the block 1/2 JFTs and become potent air defence aircraft.
PAF could also buy an additional 50 F-7PGs, could be bought second hand from retiring Chinese stock for pennies or given even for free. These could be upgraded with a small AESA radar. The main problem that the F-7s / MiG-21s have faced for so long is that their nose is not big enough for a decent radar. This problem has recently been solved with air-breathing, low cost GaN AESA radars. Such radars would allow the F-7PGs to shoot SD-10s at decent BVR ranges.
Upgraded such, PAF F-7PGs would get a new lease of life and act as point defence fighters and Close Air Support aircraft for the PA.

INCREASE PRODUCTION OF BLOCK 3s: This I think is a long awaited upgraded and should be a no-brainer.

USE E-BOMBS: IAF has been using increasingly large formations against PAF. A well-placed E-bomb would fry the electronics of such a formation. Would almost be an e-bomb SAM.

SCARE THEM: Get some JH-7As for strike, and pay visits to near Mumbai and Goa in the way that the Russians use their BEARs. This would expose the weakness of their radar network and defenses in the Southern Command, forcing IAF to put its valuable resources defending this sector rather than acting aggressively up north.

The only realistic option is to get more JFTs.M3/5s dont have the legs and upgrades will require funding which could suddenly run into 100s of millions. Same problem with J7s and the most advanced AESA will not change the short leggedness of the fighter.
Regards

 

[Armchair]

The only realistic option is to get more JFTs.M3/5s dont have the legs and upgrades will require funding which could suddenly run into 100s of millions. Same problem with J7s and the most advanced AESA will not change the short leggedness of the fighter.
Regards

Hi Araz,

The Mirages have done just fine so far as regards strike. Their short-leggedness has not been a major issue so far. It makes sense therefore to do anything to keep their numbers up, and their capabilities as current as possible.

Same goes with the F-7PGs, if they can be made to use the SD-10, they would make effective point defense fighters, in that role and in the defensive Close Air Support (CAS) role, they are the best bang for the buck.

 

[SQ8]

Hi Araz,

The Mirages have done just fine so far as regards strike. Their short-leggedness has not been a major issue so far. It makes sense therefore to do anything to keep their numbers up, and their capabilities as current as possible.

Same goes with the F-7PGs, if they can be made to use the SD-10, they would make effective point defense fighters, in that role and in the defensive Close Air Support (CAS) role, they are the best bang for the buck.

The range for the Grifo-7PG doesn’t justify a BVR system even though they do practice the engagement process.

 

[Armchair]

The range for the Grifo-7PG doesn’t justify a BVR system even though they do practice the engagement process.

I was suggesting upgrading the Grifo with an air cooled AESA, given the price drop in AESA technologies, even GaN. The problem with the F-7s have always been the small nosecone, and now the solution is there. Do with the PGs what we did with the Mirages, and you'd have a very potent point interceptor and (defensive) CAS aircraft.

 

[denel]

The range for the Grifo-7PG doesn’t justify a BVR system even though they do practice the engagement process.

not to mention integration between SD10 and Grifo; these are different architectures.

 

[Armchair]

not to mention integration between SD10 and Grifo; these are different architectures.

There is apparently a Chinese company trying to sell small, low cost air cooled AESA radars that is scalable and their target audience seems to be refitting older aircraft (or in this case even the JFT). One such radar is (was?) even up for contention for the Block 3 / block 1/2 upgrade.

With the Mirage IIIs one could also refit the PD radars from the Block 2/1 JFTs, once AESAs are installed in the latter; that would be a cheap BVR upgrade.

 

[SQ8]

not to mention integration between SD10 and Grifo; these are different architectures.

That can be worked around, the problem is that unlike the Bison the PG’s have a really small space for the Antenna.

 

[denel]

There is apparently a Chinese company trying to sell small, low cost air cooled AESA radars that is scalable and their target audience seems to be refitting older aircraft (or in this case even the JFT). One such radar is (was?) even up for contention for the Block 3 / block 1/2 upgrade.

With the Mirage IIIs one could also refit the PD radars from the Block 2/1 JFTs, once AESAs are installed in the latter; that would be a cheap BVR upgrade.

yes i do get your point but the question is how much money you want to spend. in my humble opinion PGs are pretty good for what they deliver and there needs to be an upgrade path for them as well.

That can be worked around, the problem is that unlike the Bison the PG’s have a really small space for the Antenna.

yes, in comms we have a saying it does not matter how good your electronics are if your antenna is no good. excellent antenna makes or breaks a radar. Bison still has a larger area unlike the 21F small cone.

 

[SQ8]

yes i do get your point but the question is how much money you want to spend. in my humble opinion PGs are pretty good for what they deliver and there needs to be an upgrade path for them as well.


yes, in comms we have a saying it does not matter how good your electronics are if your antenna is no good. excellent antenna makes or breaks a radar. Bison still has a larger area unlike the 21F small cone.

Since the Indian influence (among others)in SA and our economic woes still exists there is no point discussing the possibility of using the A darter seeker on the R-darter to give a R-77T type capability.

 

[denel]

Since the Indian influence (among others)in SA and our economic woes still exists there is no point discussing the possibility of using the A darter seeker on the R-darter to give a R-77T type capability.

oscar, indian influence is dead with the departure of Guptas; any mention of Indian is a no go zone; so forget any indian influence for next 2 generations. Darters mated with PG will run circles around Bison or M2K.

 

[fatman17]

There is a message in this

 

[fatman17]

Numerous collaborations can happen.
China - Pakistan
Turkey - Pakistan
Italy - Pakistan

The only roadblock is our current state of the economy / financial situation but this also can be overcome by reducing the "waste " in our budget and proper utilisation of the funds.

 

[Army research]

There is a message in this View attachment 566807

" the future is in the skies "

 

[Armchair]

oscar, indian influence is dead with the departure of Guptas; any mention of Indian is a no go zone; so forget any indian influence for next 2 generations. Darters mated with PG will run circles around Bison or M2K.

So perhaps, the upgrade path of the PG could be not a radar upgrade but data links and some kind of a Darter - like Oscar intriguingly suggests - an A-darter / R-Darter hybrid. Or perhaps a combination of Darters.

 

[denel]

So perhaps, the upgrade path of the PG could be not a radar upgrade but data links and some kind of a Darter - like Oscar intriguingly suggests - an A-darter / R-Darter hybrid. Or perhaps a combination of Darters.

Correct a combination of darters is not out of the question either