Pakistan Air Force | News & Discussions.

[SQ8]

Seeing that the PAF leadership even walked away from the F-16s (after the US refused to back it with FMF) despite having the infrastructure for it, it seems that the funds have been allotted for other things, with emphasis on the JF-17 and the FGF. Besides scarcity of funds, I wonder how much of it also has to do with just being fed up with being a price-taker on the import market (not to mention grovelling repeatedly for loans and credit), and just closing the door on the issue once for all. While the cost issue won't go away with FGF, at least you have control over the spare parts, supply channel (e.g. deciding when to downsize or ramp-up production), etc.

There are still suppliers open, but unlike the gcc arabs who will dole out money wherever their respective western consultants/gods suggest- we don’t have the open funds nor do we purchase on a whim or a simple tap on our insecurities.

The goal was even in the worst situation have 75 F-16s and 150 JF-17s +the PGs doing intercepts and soldiering on the most serviciable and competent mirage airframes.

What the PAF is doing now is what the PA is doing and the PN is doing, focusing on itself as a warfighting organism as a whole rather than piling on incompatible and dubiously ready systems in the East,or toys like the Arabs, or propogana like our western neighbor.

Interestingly, it is the Chinese who have now taken our lesson to heart and are doing just that... building a unified warfighting organization rather than multiple non specific confused systems.

 

[fatman17]

PAF Has Operated AVIC’s Wing Loong I Since 2015 https://t.co/aP6Kl3EAIt https://t.co/yZ23k16NWV

 

[fatman17]

PAF Has Operated AVIC’s Wing Loong I Since 2015
Posted on January 27, 2018


A review of commercial satellite imagery acquired between 2015 and 2017 by DigitalGlobe confirms that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is operating the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) Wing Loong I medium-altitude, long endurance unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV). Imagery shows the platform parked near an aircraft shelter at the PAF M. M. Alam airbase in Mianwali, Punjab. A report of the UAV’s possible deployment was published online earlier this month by the Center for the Study of the Drone at Bard College.

Previously, video and handhelds released by the Pakistani press in 2016 of a crashed drone near the airbase showed components that strongly resembled the Wing Loong I. The report was the first open source tip-off that Pakistan was operating the strike-capable UAV. Contrary to the Bard College report, a further review of commercial imagery confirms that Pakistan has operated the aircraft from the airbase since at least 2015. In fact, commercial imagery captured on 01 November 2015 shows two of the UAV at the hangar. Multiple Wing Loong have not been observed at the location since.

The Wing Loong I, Pakistan’s most advanced strike-capable UAV, has a length of 9 m, a wingspan of 14 m and a range of 5,000 km. Pakistan joins a handful of air arms in the Middle East and Central Asia who operate the platform. Additional strike-capable UAVs operated by the PAF include a derivative of the CASC CH-3, known domestically as the Burraq. Produced by Pakistan’s National Engineering and Scientific Commission (NESCOM), the Burraq was used by the PAF in its first documented drone strike in 2015. In addition to the PAF, the country’s Navy also inducted their first local Chinese variants in 2013.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There are still suppliers open, but unlike the gcc arabs who will dole out money wherever their respective western consultants/gods suggest- we don’t have the open funds nor do we purchase on a whim or a simple tap on our insecurities.

The goal was even in the worst situation have 75 F-16s and 150 JF-17s +the PGs doing intercepts and soldiering on the most serviciable and competent mirage airframes.

What the PAF is doing now is what the PA is doing and the PN is doing, focusing on itself as a warfighting organism as a whole rather than piling on incompatible and dubiously ready systems in the East,or toys like the Arabs, or propogana like our western neighbor.

Interestingly, it is the Chinese who have now taken our lesson to heart and are doing just that... building a unified warfighting organization rather than multiple non specific confused systems.

I see that. It's apparent that the FGF is not being sought for its own sake, but to achieve very specific objectives: (1) deep-strike, (2) OCA and (3) maritime operations. The sensor-fusion and low-RCS profile is beneficial on all counts. Sure, there's that boast factor of having an FGF, but that's not the objective in the program.

 

[sparten]

J10 was rejected since it did not offer sufficiently advanced capabioity versus costs.
The FGF project has been up since at least the late 2000's, when the Indian MMRCA programme began.
Especially from Mid 2011, when the F16IN was dropped, Lockheed Martin spent a lot of time trying to convince the PAF to adopt the F35, I believe the even dangled the possibility of a manufacturering line at PAC. For a short while the PAF seemed interested, you might remember a few years ago the PAF chief spoke of buying the F35. That seems ended now.

While the smart money has been on J-31=Pakistani FGF, its not really clear if it is. The PAF has had a reqirement for a big twin engined interceptor since the 1980's when the F6 became increasingly obsolesent. Before Pressler, the PAF was about the issue a RFP/RFI for one, with F14, F15 being the front runners. We very nearly bought the Su-27 in the mid 1990's, until then CAS, Farooq Khan decided that the TOT offered by the French and Italians for ROSE Mirage and F7PG programmes was a better bet. J20 would seem a better bet than the J31 in this spehre.

So its possible that FGF is a brand new Pakistani developed plane (with Chinese assiatcne of course).

 

[BHarwana]

J-10b was never rejected there is no proof and currently there is no jet that can match J10-b in the single engine class.
Plus PAF requires 2 squadrons of J-10b because of it's interception role and max speed of 2.2 mach and the speed is 2.5 with WS-10 and J-10b being a delta wing configuration is best platform from Skardu Air base and Siachen region. Pakistan always ordered J-10b with WS-10 and Plan is now being tested.

 

[Army research]

The fgf would be a Pakistani designed plane , if things go according to plan , a dual engine fighter. Further details highly secret

 

[Khadim e Darul Ehsaan]

Why is Pakistan not buying J-20 or J-31 and making Azm? Because Pakistan is going to get J-10b for interception. JF-17 is work horse that will fight all the battles but which jet will Intercept incoming Indian jets first and which jet will take out Indian early warning systems in range. It is J-10b and J-10 b will accompany Jf-17 and other jets. the current development of J-10 b is the very proof that J-10b is on cards. China has flanker and many other jets that are far superior than J-10b but they still develop it means that the Jet is on Pakistani cards. only time will tell but this possibility cannot be ruled out until there is some concrete evidence. Because there is no other Jet that can do mach 2.2

I have read yur discussion sir bharwana ,i am very sorry to say that i feel you have no solid concrete evidence (may be i m wrong). U r an elite member of this hounerable and knowledgable forum but personally i think that u r assuming that Pakistan will buy it bcz pakistan needs it ,else then that i think there is no solid evidence .the pic u shared and said is of paf j10b being tested is also not a proof bcz who knows either it is for china or for pakistan

 

[BHarwana]

I have read yur discussion sir bharwana ,i am very sorry to say that i feel you have no solid concrete evidence (may be i m wrong). U r an elite member of this hounerable and knowledgable forum but personally i think that u r assuming that Pakistan will buy it bcz pakistan needs it ,else then that i think there is no solid evidence .the pic u shared and said is of paf j10b being tested is also not a proof bcz who knows either it is for china or for pakistan

My friend I totally agree with you and you could be right and I could be wrong but one of my point stands valid. I have provided the official statement of order being placed and no one here has provided official statement that order has been canceled. All every one did was made assumptions of order being canceled because so long time frame with out keeping in mind the development of WS-10. The News I quoted is from 2013 and this is 2018 it takes time to develop a Jet engine. I am the one that stands here with firm evidence of order being placed but no one here is giving firm evidence that order has been canceled, I am not making any claims but just stating common sense and I am flexible to change my stance if some evidence is given of order being canceled. I have provided evidence and now I am just asking the opposition to do the same and give evidence this is not a fight but just an effort to achieve the true nature of the things. The continuous development of J-10b is the biggest prove that the jet is on cards and there is no modern interceptor that can achieve this role. The latest J-10b is better that Rafael and many other platforms out there. Fifth gen cannot fill the role of interceptor even Russia revived the MIG 31 fighter jet and modernized it. There is no Air force with out interceptors.

 

[SabzShaheen]

My friend I totally agree with you and you could be right and I could be wrong but one of my point stands valid. I have provided the official statement of order being placed and no one here has provided official statement that order has been canceled. All every one did was made assumptions of order being canceled because so long time frame with out keeping in mind the development of WS-10. The News I quoted is from 2013 and this is 2018 it takes time to develop a Jet engine. I am the one that stands here with firm evidence of order being placed but no one here is giving firm evidence that order has been canceled, I am not making any claims but just stating common sense and I am flexible to change my stance if some evidence is given of order being canceled. I have provided evidence and now I am just asking the opposition to do the same and give evidence this is not a fight but just an effort to achieve the true nature of the things. The continuous development of J-10b is the biggest prove that the jet is on cards and there is no modern interceptor that can achieve this role. The latest J-10b is better that Rafael and many other platforms out there. Fifth gen cannot fill the role of interceptor even Russia revived the MIG 31 fighter jet and modernized it. There is no Air force with out interceptors.

Fair enough that there doesn't seem to be evidence of a cancellation of any J-10 order but I doubt the PAF will induct any because we don't need them. Wikipedia says that the order was cancelled in 2016 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Pakistan) but the linked source is not available. Bear in mind that the JF-17 Block 3 is still in development and it is likely that a 4th block will be made which could be better suited to an interceptor role if the PAF deems it necessary. Also, many FGFs like the Sukhoi FGFA and J-31 (which Pakistan may acquire) are being designed as multi-role aircraft so they will be able to perform the interceptor role.

 

[Talon]

J-10b was never rejected there is no proof and currently there is no jet that can match J10-b in the single engine class.
Plus PAF requires 2 squadrons of J-10b because of it's interception role and max speed of 2.2 mach and the speed is 2.5 with WS-10 and J-10b being a delta wing configuration is best platform from Skardu Air base and Siachen region. Pakistan always ordered J-10b with WS-10 and Plan is now being tested.

Paf F16s have already beaten J10 in a friendly engagement(cant and wont tell more details abt this).
Yes J10 was once considered for induction but those were old days no chances now.
J10 and Su35 are never coming to Pakistan.

 

[BHarwana]

Fair enough that there doesn't seem to be evidence of a cancellation of any J-10 order but I doubt the PAF will induct any because we don't need them. Wikipedia says that the order was cancelled in 2016 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Pakistan) but the linked source is not available. Bear in mind that the JF-17 Block 3 is still in development and it is likely that a 4th block will be made which could be better suited to an interceptor role if the PAF deems it necessary. Also, many FGFs like the Sukhoi FGFA and J-31 (which Pakistan may acquire) are being designed as multi-role aircraft so they will be able to perform the interceptor role.

JF-17 block 3 or J-31 are not interceptors. Here are possible interceptors. J-7P, MIG-31, Mirage-3, J-20, J-10b. Interceptors are the first jets to approach an incoming air attack. The Job of the interceptors is to fly fast fire missiles and run like hell thus making an incoming attack to lose it's full capacity of attack and fuel thus providing your own fighter an edge in a fight. they also take out Early warning systems and Air refueling tankers. PAF has always used interceptors and you are trying to tell me that they will ditch them why? Interceptor is not an air craft but an Air warfare strategy.

If JF-17 block 3 can do above Mach 2.2 that means Pakistan is not buying J-10b, If Pakistan places an order for J-20 that means Pakistan is not buying J-10b or if Pakistan buys Mig 31DZ that means Pakistan is not buying J-10b. Look at PAF inventory it is full of interceptors. PAF loves interceptors and they plan to keep them. Interceptors are the main threat to India and USA they are even better than 5th Gen. Interceptor can attack and out run 5th gen any time. Either Pakistan will not retire J-7P/PG or Mirages or it will buy J-10b or JF-17 will get WS-10 engine in block 3 and will achieve Mach 2.0 there is no way around this.

 

[Talon]

The News I quoted is from 2013 and this is 2018 it takes time to develop a Jet engine.

I was told in 2014 by a Paf pilot that the order has been canceled so that 2013 source of yours stands invalid..atleast in my books.

 

[BHarwana]

I was told in 2014 by a Paf pilot that the order has been canceled so that 2013 source of yours stands invalid..atleast in my books.

Previously all those who said Pakistan was buying J-10b said I was told and they were made fool of now all those who are saying that I was told are doing the same. My friend stop I was told and bring evidence. I am not saying you were told wrong but just asking the same question please give concrete evidence. This discussion is going no where you cannot say any thing because of the secrecy in the induction process and development process every thing is so secrete and no PAF pilot can tell you any thing until he is a test pilot so my point still stands I have many PAF pilots as friends but it is pointless to ask them any thing because only PAF test team knows what is actually going on and which Platforms Pakistan is interested in. Still I stand with the order being positive because of the PAF desire to use interceptors.

Paf F16s have already beaten J10 in a friendly engagement(cant and wont tell more details abt this).
Yes J10 was once considered for induction but those were old days no chances now.
J10 and Su35 are never coming to Pakistan.

Yes F-16 can beat J-10 in exercises but no F-16 can beat J-10b that is a fact and in real war if J-10b wants to take a kill over F-16 or F-15 it can because it is an interceptor and it will fire and escape faster than it could be caught. This is the strategy that was developed in Iran Iraq war. MIG 31 was never caught by Iranis even with F-14 twin engine tomcats just ask them and they will tell you the reality. In real war and beyond visual range interceptor are deadly than any jet in the world. That is why J-7P/PG still serves around the world. How the hell would F-16 even get near J-10b in beyond visual range engagement it is impossible to catch the jet. It is too fast and can attack from even further. F-7P/PG is still the most dominant fighter out there.

 

[Talon]

Previously all those who said Pakistan was buying J-10b said I was told and they were made fool of now all those who are saying that I was told are doing the same. My friend stop I was told and bring evidence. I am not saying you were told wrong but just asking the same question please give concrete evidence. This discussion is going no where you cannot say any thing because of the secrecy in the induction process and development process every thing is so secrete and no PAF pilot can tell you any thing until he is a test pilot so my point still stands I have many PAF pilots as friends but it is pointless to ask them any thing because only PAF test team knows what is actually going on and which Platforms Pakistan is interested in. Still I stand with the order being positive because of the PAF desire to use interceptors.

You said everyone here is making assumptions that the order has been cancelled so i said i have been told and now u have issues abt getting told as well...its not necessary for every project to be announced at what posit it is as at or is it even active.

Yes F-16 can beat J-10 in exercises but no F-16 can beat J-10b that is a fact and in real war if J-10b wants to take a kill over F-16 or F-15 it can because it is an interceptor and it will fire and escape faster than it could be caught. This is the strategy that was developed in Iran Iraq war. MIG 31 was never caught by Iranis even with F-14 twin engine tomcats just ask them and they will tell you the reality. In real war and beyond visual range interceptor are deadly than any jet in the world. That is why J-7P/PG still serves around the world. How the hell would F-16 even get near J-10b in beyond visual range engagement it is impossible to catch the jet. It is too fast and can attack from even further. F-7P/PG is still the most dominant fighter out there.

Are u sick...do u even know whats the strategy of Paf in warfare?Do u think Paf doesnt know how to tackle bvr engagements?
Paf is a force that practices 1 vs 5 scenarios bcuz it knows it will always be short at numbers.Similarly it practices to bring the Red team within Wvr bcuz it knows its will always be at lower tech than its enemy.
How do u think Paf has guts to send an F7pg or even a Mirage whoz hud barely works to Intercept the enemy's Su30...bcuz it flies daily and practices these kinds of things all day long.
I tell u Paf has taken down J10s and u say it was only an exercise...if u have so many paf pilots as friends then ask them about this engagement and they will tell u what the matter really was...until then stop claiming that falan jahaz can never take down falan jahaz and stop comparing Paf with Iranis.If only tech mattered then saudi IFVs wouldnt be getting their a** kicked in yemen or their F15s getting shot down.