Pakistan acquires capability to develop N-sub

[Cheetah786]

information is power and perceptions are everything

 

[ejaz007]

I don’t think Pakistan has the know how to built nuclear submarine on its own, at least not presently. But the bigger issue before starting research work on such a project shall be to decide whether PN needs one or not. The only logical explanation is to have a credible nuclear second-strike option available. Apart from that in present situation PN does not have a requirement for such a weapon. PN should first focus on its surface and sub surface fleet modernization and then should consider this option.
It is not easy to built, operate and maintain a nuclear submarine. At the expense of one nuclear submarine one can maintain more than one diesel powered submarines.

 

[MastanKhan]

Araz,

You are correct in your assessment. Technically there is a lot more to making a nuclear sub. After all the technical issues and the cost to manufacture one, the thing is that can we afford to own upto it. We have nuclear weapons, because america understands our threat levels---we have 2000 miles missiles, america knows what we are up against---we have converted our aircraft to deliver weapons in our neighbourhood---they can live with that as well---. It is one thing to own all these items and something totally different to own a nuclear sub.

But I will tell you one thing---a pakistani nuclear sub on its own---sailing beneath the dark oceans---who knows what its destiny is---that idea won't fly at any cost---why---because the nukes are already assembled and ready for delivery---just need to plug in the codes---which are already in the sub---the sub can be hijacked by its captain and officers anytime---THIS IS A TICKING NUCLEAR TIME BOMB ready to ignite the world with the fury of its launch---it is the RED OCTOBER scenario with a STAR & CRESCENT on it.

The world will have to change a lot. The present threat of extremism vanished---another 20 years---pakistan sitting on 100 billion $ + reserves---american forces out of iraq and afghanistan---saudis developing a little bit of a backbone and not depending on back door diplomacy all the time---pakistan's engineering technology 5 steps ahead of where it is now. But the bottomline is why get something that we don't need. In our local battle scenario, nuclear subs are a matter of ego---over here diesels rule---

 

[SABRE]

Sabre.
My friend I am not that knowledgeable on maritime affairs but my understanding is that one of the reasons for buying the U214 was that it could launch a naval version of the cruise missile(Nuke tipped). If that is the case then your point may be satisfied by that alone.

I believe plans for upgrading Agostas to fire Cruise Missiles is also under consideration but I have no credible information on that.

Yes launching a cruise missile from a sub will satisfy the point but where cruise missiles enjoy being smart weapons compared to ballistic missiles, there ballistic missiles are of longer range & can strike deep into the enemy hear land, especially if your enemy is the size of an elephant. This is perhaps the reason the that major nuclear powers have opted for nuclear powered ballistic submarines.

I am not too sure of sea based nuclear tactics but I think the sub will have to keep some distance from the target. Since its of shorter range its immediate attention would be on a port city. But this distancing will have disadvantage in the nuclear radius after the explosion. However, it would least matter. A nuclear strike anywhere is devastating, even if the radius of explosion does not cover whole area you desire to target.

My understanding of the need to have a nuclear sub is its advantage of staying under water for longer period and capability to strike at long distances. As such the only Navies that have them are Navies which want to project power beyond the range of conventional subs----- so called Blue water navies.

Also to add nuclear subs can travel longer distances. But that doesn't mean conventional cant go the same distance ... it would just have to refuel & recharge the batteries. This however has been consolidated with the introduction of MESMA/AIP. There are problems with MESMA but I believe they would be over come once the technology matures.


I'll also like to tell (Even though I think you already know). When we talk of nuke-subs ppl usually see a sub capable of launching SLBMs. This is true but just to make distinction there are:

* SSBN = nuclear powered submarines, which are not necessarily capable of launching SLBMs.

* SSBK = nuclear ballestic submarines, as the name suggest they can launch SLBMs.

However its the combination of the two that the major powers go for. Their SSBKs are powered by nuclear reactors.

Pakistan at the present moment has a defensive navy for littoral defense and its needs will be well fulfilled by a good Deisel Sub like the U214. Our resources are limited and our navy severely deficient in surface and subsurface platforms. Building a Nuke Sub would require a lot of effort and research and MONEY. We neither have these nor the Technical know how to build a good conventional sub let alone a Nuke sub.(build not assemble!!).
However as I have said it is agood step to get further Know how in Sub building and then concentrate on our own Platform in the next decade ---perhaps with a bit of help from our friends.
WaSalam
Araz

Well if you re-read my previous post I did not say PN should opt for SSBKs (or SSBNs). I was just giving a general information which is valid in nuclear strategy. But just to rephrase it 'for assured 2nd strike capability it is must to have a submarine capable of launching a nuclear strike.'

As for your over all comment I would say yes for the time being Conventional Subs capable of launching cruise missiles with nuclear warheads is enough for Pakistan. At least we can deter India by even putting Bombay & Ahmedabad on the target list of sea-based attack.

As for SSBK/SSBN it would take lot of time & resources but even gaining knowledge from making a drawing of it on a paper good measure & 1st step. We shouldn't remain oblivious to it.

 

[MOSABJA]

You R right with conventional subs and CMs.We could easily put Israel and INDIA in the NET.

But if we want to put US in the net and defend ourselves against US as they are threatening our NUkes and Bombing to stone age then we have to go for NUK SUB.

Even though putting US blue eyed baby Israel in the net would be enough for deterring US cuz its heart is in ISRAEL.

 

[EagleEyes]

Even though putting US blue eyed baby Israel in the net would be enough for deterring US cuz its heart is in ISRAEL.

Thats some what true, but then it depends which government is in power. IMO, if Ron Paul becomes the President.. you can't do that. Ron Paul will not allow any Isreali lobby to influence U.S. decisions.

 

[SABRE]

You R right with conventional subs and CMs.We could easily put Israel and INDIA in the NET.

But if we want to put US in the net and defend ourselves against US as they are threatening our NUkes and Bombing to stone age then we have to go for NUK SUB.

Even though putting US blue eyed baby Israel in the net would be enough for deterring US cuz its heart is in ISRAEL.

Why would you want to threaten Israel unless it becomes real threat to you? Besides we can do that with Ballistic Missiles. As for the US we do not need to acquire SSBKs & take them into Atlantic or Pacific Ocean. The US Virginia Class subs are very capable of detecting enemy. However, the Americans do have military basis in Middle, Afghanistan & else where in Asia. If any thing, they should watch themselves out in those places whether they are in reach of Pakistan BMs (& subs with SMs).

 

[Marshal]

I think first of all financialy Pakistan can not afford this N-sub.Look friends I am not underminig your financial capability so dont take me wrong on that.I am suggesting that to develope,to aquire and then to run and maintain the n-sub is a costly bussiness.Look at our own ATV program which was started 30 years a go and it is still not competed yet thogh it has been launched and it is expected to run for the trials in 2009.but still it has taken lots of manhour and financial toll while our economy was growing at slow pace. right now from 2004 our economy is growing at avg 8.5%. our GDP has reached above 1 trillian $ mark so we can at least afford 2 or 3 hardly.Your GDP is I think 10 or 15% of ours and military budget is also low as compared to India.one n-sub will cost you about 1 billion $ or even more.to maintain it will cost you about third of the total coast of the N-sub.I think the amount you have to spend on the maintanance on the n-sub is enough to buy a new ssk with under sea missile launch capability.and in the end you have to refule the n-sub with tones of enriched uranium after every 10 to 12 years this process is costlier than any other process cuz you have to cut the hull of the submarine for that.

 

[araz]

I think first of all financialy Pakistan can not afford this N-sub.Look friends I am not underminig your financial capability so dont take me wrong on that.I am suggesting that to develope,to aquire and then to run and maintain the n-sub is a costly bussiness.Look at our own ATV program which was started 30 years a go and it is still not competed yet thogh it has been launched and it is expected to run for the trials in 2009.but still it has taken lots of manhour and financial toll while our economy was growing at slow pace. right now from 2004 our economy is growing at avg 8.5%. our GDP has reached above 1 trillian $ mark so we can at least afford 2 or 3 hardly.Your GDP is I think 10 or 15% of ours and military budget is also low as compared to India.one n-sub will cost you about 1 billion $ or even more.to maintain it will cost you about third of the total coast of the N-sub.I think the amount you have to spend on the maintanance on the n-sub is enough to buy a new ssk with under sea missile launch capability.and in the end you have to refule the n-sub with tones of enriched uranium after every 10 to 12 years this process is costlier than any other process cuz you have to cut the hull of the submarine for that.

Marshal.
I agree with your post. However we are at a slight tangent.The question is whether we have the capability of building one-- If the original article is to be believed.the answer to that has to be No, although to acquire the capability of sub building as such would be a great plus for us.
There is a subtle difference between the Indian and pakistani strategy. it may have something to do with the respective levels of development that each country is at. Also being a smaller country, we have chosen the route of collaboration, rather than build a new one outright as has been your plan.
As to the question of whether we need one, I honestly dont think so at this moment. however, what most of the respected posters have pointed out repeatedly is that we should acquire the skills to build one if we can so that in adecade or 2 if the threat perceptions of the Government changes, we would go on and build one.
I would however like to say one thing out loud and clear. This is not meant as an insult to anyone, but when we do decide to get one- WE WILL GET ONE AND HAVE THE RESOURCES TO RUN AS MANY AS ARE NEEDED:pakistan
regards
Araz

 

[Marshal]

Hey......Araz
I could not agree with you more,I think you are right one must have the capability to build n-sub,any patriotic person would like to see that his country should have the capability,but my question is at what cost? 1st It require severe budget at right time and if you can not provide it than there will be a problem of delay and cost overun just like the ATV. 2nd By providing the adiquiet budget to n-sub program it will end up affecting the other programs of army navy and airforce cuzz it will eat the fund drom the regular defence spending. 3rd if the govt decide to fund n-sub program externaly i mean to say that by not including this project in to defence budget then it wiill affect other development projects like social educational etc cuz it require hell lot of funding.anyway thats my thinking.
By the here is the link to see the Indian navy Nuclear powered submarine



http://http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/251/thehindussbnwf1.jpg

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

i thought i might share this regarding n-submarines, hope this link works.
cc7pDNXmBd8[/media] - Inshallah Pakistan will built Nuclear Submarine.

 

[MOSABJA]

It said that Pakistan would declare formally the development of nuk sub when it would be build.


Does that mean that one fine day we would get up and see on GEO that we have a nuk sub

 

[T-Rex]

What is the length of the Augusta 90B sub? I think it will be economical for Pakistan to modify the Augusta 90B subs to carry a nuclear reactor. However, the question is, does Pakistan have the ability to produce its own nuclear reactor, let alone having a mini reactor to fit a sub.

 

[0UTL4W]

I think first of all financialy Pakistan can not afford this N-sub.Look friends I am not underminig your financial capability so dont take me wrong on that.I am suggesting that to develope,to aquire and then to run and maintain the n-sub is a costly bussiness.Look at our own ATV program which was started 30 years a go and it is still not competed yet thogh it has been launched and it is expected to run for the trials in 2009.but still it has taken lots of manhour and financial toll while our economy was growing at slow pace. right now from 2004 our economy is growing at avg 8.5%. our GDP has reached above 1 trillian $ mark so we can at least afford 2 or 3 hardly.Your GDP is I think 10 or 15% of ours and military budget is also low as compared to India.one n-sub will cost you about 1 billion $ or even more.to maintain it will cost you about third of the total coast of the N-sub.I think the amount you have to spend on the maintanance on the n-sub is enough to buy a new ssk with under sea missile launch capability.and in the end you have to refule the n-sub with tones of enriched uranium after every 10 to 12 years this process is costlier than any other process cuz you have to cut the hull of the submarine for that.

look man i dont mean to be rude but regarding your ATV program, which ever project india takes up its always ridiculously off-track in one way or another. LCA, Arjun...ring any bells?

 

[JEFF]

look man i dont mean to be rude but regarding your ATV program, which ever project india takes up its always ridiculously off-track in one way or another. LCA, Arjun...ring any bells?

Yes truly said, but at the same time you should also favour India by giving it a distinction of a country which has never undertaken any of such cutting edge project in the past and still it has been consistant with those project.